GambitGuild

Gambit => Gambit => Topic started by: Toadman005 on November 12, 2018, 12:14:09 PM

Title: At what point did Gambit lose his top shelf appeal in popularity?
Post by: Toadman005 on November 12, 2018, 12:14:09 PM
I've ben debating making this thread for a while....don't want to get beaten up...but lets face it. Our favorite Cajun is not what he used to be. At one point in the mid-late 90's Gambit was arguably more popular than Wolverine, and easily among Marvel's most marketable characters (far more at that time than say, Thor or Iron Man), and a mainstay in the title X-brands. Additionally he was among the most "bad ass" characters as well, always treated as dangerous and cunning and unpredictable.


These days, he's barely used, often relegated to mini's or offshoot X-titles, or background art/panels. He's barely in any video games anymore. He's often lampooned as a troupe or cliche. He's joke upon, and he gets his ass kicked constantly.


When, where and why do you feel this happened?


Imo it was tri-fold.


1.) When Gambit's "secret"w as finally revealed and then he was removed from the title for a period, I feel it cost him a lot of his mystique and coolness. I think a lot of readers checked out during this time.


2.) With the first X-Men movie and Morrison's New X-Men hitting at roughly the same time, I think for new or newly reinterested readers, Gambit as not a main guy anymore. He was a tier 2 or even 3 guy, and as he failed to appear in subsequent movies or titles he slipped more and more.


3.) Writer sabotage. Lets face it many writers hated the character because most writers are old fans and Gambit was the "new" cool guy who got over at the expense of "their" guys be it Wolverine or Colossus, etc. So, they'd "stick it to him" whenever they got the chance to make the character look bad, or, years later make him a prop for Rogue.


oh and 4.) The art began to suffer. Gambit is a character at his best with a capable artist who can encompass his unique look, his acrobatic dynamics in a fight, and his handsome charm. Jim Lee, Andy Kubert, etc. As Marvel's artist declined, so did Gambit's appeal.
Title: Re: At what point did Gambit lose his top shelf appeal in popularity?
Post by: purplevit on November 12, 2018, 02:29:40 PM
When Alonso came to Marvel. Fabian's solo got cancelled because they thought there were too many X books. Gambit hab better sales then Hulk and Deadpool back then but his solo was cut. Marvel didn't want hin to shine anymore.
Title: Re: At what point did Gambit lose his top shelf appeal in popularity?
Post by: Nekobaghira on November 12, 2018, 03:14:49 PM
Editorial also had more to do with the demise as much as other stuff. Quesada's control of the company was horrendous. He didn't care about Gambit.


When the only characters he wins in fights are nobodies, that doesn't say much for Gambit. It can be drawn spectacularly and folks think it looks great but c'mon, he's beating up nobodies, seriously, the who cares factor pops into play with that nonsense.

He gets beat up by Captain America, not once but three times. That is some serious disrespect for the character. This character who made it to the end of  Contest of Champions against well known characters. It's disheartening.

Being a prop to Rogue doesn't help him. Doesn't matter the accolades or how well written, Gambit still isn't doing anything of importance or worthy of caring about.

Writer disrespect due to whatever reasons certainly didn't help.

He's a cliche or a trope that doesn't fit the Marvel agenda. IMO.

Title: Re: At what point did Gambit lose his top shelf appeal in popularity?
Post by: Sparta on November 12, 2018, 06:40:43 PM
Quesada was the main problem. Cancelled his solo (which was still selling okay), and brought in a lot of Gambit-hating writers on 'X-Men'. Had no real presence in Ultimate Universe which was the biggest thing in Marvel at the time. During the big 2001 relaunch Gambit was snubbed and put in limbo until Claremont brought him over to X-Treme months later. FoX-Men was the other big problem, seven X-Men films without Gambit...5-minute role in a forgotten Wolverine solo (which was wiped out anyway)


Significant things that's happened to Gambit since 2001?


-A failed Horseman
-The cats
-Marriage to Rogue


Asmus' solo, Liu's X-23, Gambit in X-Factor and R&G. They were the highlights.


That said, 2018 is the most I've seen of Gambit in a long time...


Gambit in 2018...


-Rogue & Gambit mini
-MMX
-Astonishing X-Men
-X-Men Red
-Occasional appearances in X-Men Gold


While we'll get contrasting opinions on whether we like these books or not, this is the most I've seen of Gambit in a single year since 2000, so maybe there is some light, we'll see...
Title: Re: At what point did Gambit lose his top shelf appeal in popularity?
Post by: bark_no_byte on November 13, 2018, 10:46:28 AM


That said, 2018 is the most I've seen of Gambit in a long time...


Gambit in 2018...


-Rogue & Gambit mini
-MMX
-Astonishing X-Men
-X-Men Red
-Occasional appearances in X-Men Gold


While we'll get contrasting opinions on whether we like these books or not, this is the most I've seen of Gambit in a single year since 2000, so maybe there is some light, we'll see...


And that's just comics. We also got him in a couple mobile games, he's finally getting a ML figure, and they just announced that Revoltech figure. Slowly but surely he's making a comeback
Title: Re: At what point did Gambit lose his top shelf appeal in popularity?
Post by: Nekobaghira on November 13, 2018, 11:06:01 AM
I think we might be missing the point of the original post. However, I get all of the enthusiasm.  :D
Being in a lot of books while is nice and top of mind awareness. He still isn't doing anything or has anything done to make him the character he once was.

I do think some strides are being made and that is good. Especially with toys/figurines, games and things. Is he on the comeback? Maybe, he's a long way from the character that debuted in the 1990's. Then again, he's not as awful as we've seen with writers like Milligan and Carey. In the end, I think some ground has been made for the character.

Outside of Red and Gold, all of his appearances are in niche books. Sometimes those books are better than the ones with Xmen in the name. But, they're subject to whim (market). I think a hat tip to Jordan White might be part of why we are currently seeing Gambit used more, he likes the character. Marvel is happy with KT so, maybe there is some of that encouragement added to the current state of affairs at Marvel.

In all fairness, I think all of the characters are watered down. Probably due to how much space is allotted for story telling.

 
 
Title: Re: At what point did Gambit lose his top shelf appeal in popularity?
Post by: red joseph on November 13, 2018, 11:16:06 AM
Like the last couple of posters have said, Gambit isn't exactly in a bad place right now. He's in multiple games, actually promoted in a lot of cases as a new character in which needs to be downloaded at an extra cost.

I'm probably wrong, but i don't think he did too badly in the years 2000 - 2010. I think it's been the last 10 years where he's not fared too well.

And it's not due to writers, as i've seen/heard a lot of writes wanting to write him but had never got a chance. IMO it's always editorial whom are at fault with how they saw Gambit. As Neko said, Gambit wasn't a character editorial wanted to push, not too long ago his book was outselling Captain Marvels, yet whose was cancelled first and is now getting a movie?

Plus editorial only saw him as Rogue's supporting character, which i think has caused him the most damage since his creation, Legacy for me was his lowest moment.

Despite editorials influence,Gambit is still one of the most popular X-men and i've seen some evidence that things might be changing at Marvel. Fingers crossed
Title: Re: At what point did Gambit lose his top shelf appeal in popularity?
Post by: red joseph on November 13, 2018, 11:23:46 AM
Outside of Red and Gold, all of his appearances are in niche books. Sometimes those books are better than the ones with Xmen in the name. But, they're subject to whim (market). I think a hat tip to Jordan White might be part of why we are currently seeing Gambit used more, he likes the character. Marvel is happy with KT so, maybe there is some of that encouragement added to the current state of affairs at Marvel.

I agree with the above. I think i'd be happy when he had a decent role in a main X-book.


X-men Red - He's wallpaper
Mr and Mrs X - Niche book in which Rogue saves the day and will probably be cancelled soon.
X-men Gold - Again barely was in it,
Title: Re: At what point did Gambit lose his top shelf appeal in popularity?
Post by: Nekobaghira on November 13, 2018, 11:41:46 AM
I agree with the above. I think i'd be happy when he had a decent role in a main X-book.
Agreed, I would want him in a team book with some presence. A larger role than wallpaper. Where he is actually used for his skill set and important for the mission even if the role is small, make the role useful. Hope that makes sense.

X-men Red - He's wallpaper
Mr and Mrs X - Niche book in which Rogue saves the day and will probably be cancelled soon.
X-men Gold - Again barely was in it,
It kind of feels like we're settling for quantity over quality when it comes to Gambit.
However, I do see the positives in being in the toy/game market. It hopefully extends his reach with people. It's good because the younger generation are game oriented and action figure oriented. Possibly gaining a reader here or there, maybe not but ... if that idea holds for Movie/TV. One might think that market could lead to some audience.


Title: Re: At what point did Gambit lose his top shelf appeal in popularity?
Post by: killphil on November 13, 2018, 12:48:35 PM
There's his and rogue's new monthly book, mr and mrs x. Really great book imo. Solid writing and characterization. Been super happy with it so far and both him and rogue are being written in character. Reminds me of the Claremont days.

Hopefully this trend continues.
Title: Re: At what point did Gambit lose his top shelf appeal in popularity?
Post by: Toadman005 on November 13, 2018, 03:21:25 PM
I just wanna see him kick SOMEONE'S ass again, someone of IMPORTANCE.


When did Gambit lose to Cap three times btw? I only remember AvX?
Title: Re: At what point did Gambit lose his top shelf appeal in popularity?
Post by: killphil on November 13, 2018, 04:00:47 PM
Just that one time, but shown 3 different times in the series.
Title: Re: At what point did Gambit lose his top shelf appeal in popularity?
Post by: Toadman005 on November 13, 2018, 04:10:09 PM
Ah gotcha.


If Cap hadn't been treating Gambit like an afterthought, his fight against him wasn't a bad showing. But the disrespect of Cp ignoring him was what made it bad.
Title: Re: At what point did Gambit lose his top shelf appeal in popularity?
Post by: Nekobaghira on November 13, 2018, 04:17:29 PM
Seeing Gambit get his ass kicked from 3 different angles doesn't make it better. Okay, it was ONE time. One time the Gambit fan to live over in three different angles. How is this good?

edit:
What was the point of showing that in three angles? Was any other character shown in such a way. I want to know. Tell me and which issue.
Title: Re: At what point did Gambit lose his top shelf appeal in popularity?
Post by: DonPriceTag on November 13, 2018, 05:57:00 PM
I track it back to the moment he wasn't chosen to be in the first Fox X-Men Movies.


When XXM ended and Morrison's run artistically and story began to focus on arcs that aligned more closely to those movies, he and several characters including Bishop and Psylocke (dead), were pushed to the rear for Cyclops, Beast, Jean, WOLVERINE!, Rogue, Xavier, Storm and Iceman.
Title: Re: At what point did Gambit lose his top shelf appeal in popularity?
Post by: Toadman005 on November 13, 2018, 05:57:25 PM
*Ducks*


please don't hurt me!!!  :-\
Title: Re: At what point did Gambit lose his top shelf appeal in popularity?
Post by: DonPriceTag on November 13, 2018, 06:15:34 PM
The problem with not featuring your characters, especially your more popular ones, if they are away from the forefront for too long they become strangers to any new fans. Anyone that jumped into the books post 2003 will have missed just about all of what made Gambit, Gambit. Its why the Asmus solo was so necessary to reintroduce him, because what he'd done up to that point was laughable at best.
Title: Re: At what point did Gambit lose his top shelf appeal in popularity?
Post by: Meliorist on November 13, 2018, 09:57:16 PM
Gotta agree with Don. The first X-Men movie seemed to pave the way for a huge shift in the X-Men story lines and art. Even their uniforms got changed to align with the movies. Characters were portrayed differently too. I think we lost old, wise Logan around that time and got a cardboard cut out instead. Then X-Men Evolution got approved and Gambit was a villain. Ultimate X-Men had a great 2 issue intro but then he became a villain and died later. After that, my knowledge is hazy haha
Title: Re: At what point did Gambit lose his top shelf appeal in popularity?
Post by: Sparta on November 13, 2018, 09:57:58 PM
Marjorie Liu's 'X-23' was probably the first to get Gambit off his knees after/during his portrayal in X-Men Legacy. She was the first writer in a long time to genuinely care about the character. Asmus soon after did the same.


Gambit's writings from 2012 onward has been an improvement, though he still has his long patches of limbo (sometimes a year long)...which is not ideal, this is where we all get frustrated. My concern is when MMX eventually ends which is probably mid next year, where does he go after that? Hopefully he'll fit into an X-Men book with a writer that will give him the right development. 
Title: Re: At what point did Gambit lose his top shelf appeal in popularity?
Post by: Nekobaghira on November 14, 2018, 09:47:20 AM
Here is the thing though - if MMX stands, then all Gambit gets in the future is appearances with Rogue as her husband. Nothing more. The writers want to write her. What story has he gotten, NONE.

A long time ago a few boards ago in fact, a poster here and I know the name but won't say it, once said - Gambit would not have any stories or be anyone without Rogue. Who would have known how prophetic was that and that was in the 1990's. Took a long time but that poster might be right now. And to be honest how sad is that.
 
Title: Re: At what point did Gambit lose his top shelf appeal in popularity?
Post by: anya on November 14, 2018, 10:20:53 AM

Well, not really, if MMX 'stands' he'll have whatever stories the writers/editors come up with. Hopefully those will be good ones and not 'just' a husband, but it's not an either/ or situation. Just look at the past years, he clearly was 'away' from rogue and it didn't really lead to better stories, because the writers and editorial just weren't interested.

I generally think it was mostly editorial and the movie pretty much gave them the cadre blache to run with it. The writers obviously get some blame for writing bad stories but the editors approved them and didn't approve better stories from other writers. But if he had been in the movies, they wouldn't have felt they had free range to write him into the ground like they did.
Title: Re: At what point did Gambit lose his top shelf appeal in popularity?
Post by: Toadman005 on November 14, 2018, 11:29:06 AM
How would y'all best get Gambit "back over"?




And if Gambit and Rogue fought who y'all think would win? (not who you think the writers would determine would win...we all know that'd be Rogue)
Title: Re: At what point did Gambit lose his top shelf appeal in popularity?
Post by: DonPriceTag on November 14, 2018, 12:29:20 PM
How would y'all best get Gambit "back over"?




And if Gambit and Rogue fought who y'all think would win? (not who you think the writers would determine would win...we all know that'd be Rogue)


I'm not so much doom and gloom. I think Gambit can be fine, while being married. He has more fans than not, and a lot of the newer writers are between their late 20s and 40-somethings, which means they have a good memory of the 90s era. Not the older writers that grew up reading in the 70s and 80s and think everything after 91' is horrid. My hope is that the G&R relationship is treated like Scott and Jean marriage where we don't see them all over each other. Cyclops was in his book, and Jean in hers. You see the one pop up in the others book from time to time, but it wasn't constant, but that goes back to writing styles. These days stories seem to be localized around the mansion or arcs just last 2 to 3 issues mended together with one or two filler books that take place, again, in the mansion or whatever place the commune. This is ideal if the MMX book has legs. We don't need them together 24/7 for them to be married. Marriage isn't super glue, and I hope whom ever writes them understands that.


About the fight... it depends, Gambit has beaten her by out smarting her, but in a straight up fight, because of her powerset, I don't think Superman can hands down win. With Simon's powers, shes actually physically stronger than she was before. She's got a lot of  brute force.
Title: Re: At what point did Gambit lose his top shelf appeal in popularity?
Post by: Nekobaghira on November 14, 2018, 03:00:13 PM
*chuckles* you know Scott cheated on Jean who was later killed and in limbo for years.

Marvel is not known for HEA's.  :D


Edit: Scott and Jean also had 40 years of history more than Gambit, they were fleshed out and not minimized or marginalized for each other, until later writers. In addition, there was more space for story telling, and secondary plots. Those things don't exist anymore. 20 pages of content. Thats it.

Edit2: Dove tailing a bit. Stan Lee probably would not have done all the bs later on in the books that have been done. As far as I know he could actually do a wide range of sci-fi, adventure and romance without all the bs. Hats off to Stan Lee.


 
Title: Re: At what point did Gambit lose his top shelf appeal in popularity?
Post by: DonPriceTag on November 14, 2018, 04:06:59 PM
*chuckles* you know Scott cheated on Jean who was later killed and in limbo for years.

Marvel is not known for HEA's.  :D


Edit: Scott and Jean also had 40 years of history more than Gambit, they were fleshed out and not minimized or marginalized for each other, until later writers. In addition, there was more space for story telling, and secondary plots. Those things don't exist anymore. 20 pages of content. Thats it.

Edit2: Dove tailing a bit. Stan Lee probably would not have done all the bs later on in the books that have been done. As far as I know he could actually do a wide range of sci-fi, adventure and romance without all the bs. Hats off to Stan Lee.


I KNEW SOMEONE WAS GOING TO DO THAT!  >:(


Of course, I'm not talking about Cyclops' rampant infidelity lol! Just the way they were portrayed, especially during the 90s. We all knew they were married, but they were rarely in the same book. Just from a reality standpoint, that's the reason officers who have significant others in the armed rarely serve together. It splits loyalty and focus. At best, you'd be lucky to be on the same base and thats not even a given under all circumstances.