GambitGuild

Gambit => Gambit => Topic started by: Nekobaghira on February 11, 2019, 08:31:23 PM

Title: Romy: Your take ... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: Nekobaghira on February 11, 2019, 08:31:23 PM
What is your view  ... as in if you wrote it. What would it be? Think about it ... if you liked it or don't or if there was something you thought worked ... what would it be?

Gonna quote Icefanatic here .. because he made me see what I would have liked ... Thank you.

Quote
Gambit and Rogue series should be something like the late TV show 'Good Behavior' that aired on TNT. A combustible relationship between two people who are formidable apart and unbeatable together. That's more what I would want for a Gambit/Rogue book.

Look up TNT's 'Good Behavior' ... That is to me what romy should be for me. It may not set well with others but it fits them for most of the stuff. Rogue would need to be adjusted. Not quite like Letty, a tad more clean cut but with Rogue's background it would be fine ... don't @ me (twitter lingo)  LOL
Gambit would be on par .... it would work .. he is  .. could be Javiar.

This would be more interesting than what is presented in MMX. But ... lets see what you want. LOL
Title: Re: Romy: Your take ... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: Meliorist on February 12, 2019, 02:41:28 AM
I have not seen Good Behavior but from what you are saying, it sounds like it encapsulates a good relationship for the two. Might watch a few episodes or binge it if its good haha but I'll come back with more thoughts after that.
In the 90s, the relationship seemed all about tension and it was unique for them. More than the standard 'will they/ won't they' style because there had to be a degree of masochism from both parties and a degree of sadism. They ended up almost taunting each other with happiness and then one or the other would lose it in a moment of weakness. Admittedly, that isn't sustainable story telling for 3 decades but it did work for a time because the audience and the characters got the occasional pay off. The pay off almost always (to my hazy memory) seemed to be punished immediately but people do like the tragic love stories.
Now, in a very serious way, Rogue is the crux of the problem. A 'happy ending' will almost always imply children ever after and, with the scope of Rogue's power, that becomes a hard narrative hurdle. Maybe having her decide to pull a Remy and ask Sinister remove a part of her brain to make her abilities more manageable. Healing factors would need to be addressed but I do like the idea of Rogue getting the idea from a time the Gambit opened up to her and it would give Remy another reason to mistrust Sinister.
We could then also get a Remy/Rogue clone that is the best of both and is, inevitably, a villain (from the future) and the X-Men must defeat them.
Well, that took a turn >.>
The major change that I would make would be that they would start being strong for each other. When Rogue is going defeatist mode because she can't touch without a power inhibitor, Gambit would do more than say sweet nothings, he would blow her self made cage to pieces because he is still happy with her. When Gambit is feeling that self loathing martyrdom/ hero complex out of punishment, Rogue would be there to remind Gambit that he has changed and become better and can continue to grow, that he has friends ( who did we decide on? Laura, Storm, and uhhh Sinister?), that the X-Family wouldn't be the same without a little Cajun.

They would eventually stop sniping at each other in moments of weakness and realize that one can weather the storm for the both of them. That way, they could keep the banter but without the 'hitting below the belt' subtext that we get now.
Title: Re: Romy: Your take ... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: Mateo3000 on February 12, 2019, 02:47:30 PM
This is a really interesting question Neko, great topic. I'm gonna have to think about this before I answer it. I need to look up Good Behavior too, I've never heard of it.
Title: Re: Romy: Your take ... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: Toadman005 on February 12, 2019, 04:58:06 PM
Gratuitous sex.
Title: Re: Romy: Your take ... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: Nekobaghira on February 12, 2019, 05:00:54 PM
Good Behavior is a dark drama. I think Rogue would bring out the best in Gambit, as Letty does for Javier.

Two seasons, not sure if it will have a third.
Yes, there is some gratuitous sex in the show too. LOL
[email protected]
Everyone take your time. It's not an easy to figure out what one would want type topic. But I am curious as to what all of you come up with. :)
Title: Re: Romy: Your take ... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: remydat on February 13, 2019, 03:06:44 PM
To me it is simple.  A Rogue that actually loves and rights for Gambit.  This is currently a one sided love affair where Gambit does all the heavy lifting.


XXM Romy and XTAS Romy was great because there was a give and take and at the end of the day you knew they both loved each other and had each other's back.


This current version just feels like Gambit is desperate to be with Rogue and Rogue is with him because she feels obligated to be with him because of said desperation.  In short, Gambit loves Rogue and Rogue loves the fact that Gambit loves her.
Title: Re: Romy: Your take ... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: Varia on June 18, 2020, 01:59:13 AM
I've been a hardcore ROMY shipper since I was a kid and, like Dido, I will go down with this ship. 

That being said. . .  it's also one of the main reasons I've veered away from comics.  I love these two together and think they can legitimately function as a supportive and healthy couple if given the chance.  I did enjoy many things about KT's run.  She came the closest to making sense of some of Rogue's previous choices.  But there were also some things that bothered me.  It's been a while since Rogue has begun to basically be a workaholic who seems to  everything in front of Remy while he waits around to support and cheer her on.  This was addressed a bit in Mr.  & Mrs.  X Volume 2 but it still broke my heart that he assumed Rogue would go to Logan and Scott before coming to him.  And that he was ok with that. . .  She showed he was wrong, but still, the fact that she just dropped everything to run off and "do good" after they escaped Mojo's clutches really irritated me. 

There were also a few times where it felt like it veered too close to celebrating the dysfunction as just "So typical ROMY!" rather than resolving it.  And, along with some of the other suggestions that have been posited, I'd like that to change.  Most of the drama between them seems to be born out of the widespread belief that happy, healthy couples do not interesting stories make, and I think in general there have been a lot of examples in television and books showing that that's not the case.  It doesn't mean stuff never comes back up or tension never occurs again.  But, just that it's not the automatic go-to of uncertain or cyncial writers. I'd like to just see them move on from it; they've been over their mistakes ad nauseum.  It'd be nice to see them legitimately move forward, and, no, I don't think it's such an impossible feat even given everything they've been through.

As others have noticed, I'd also allow them to be strong individually as well as a couple.  I don't like Gambit just being an appendage of Rogue's, either.  Neither of them, imho, is being used to their maximum potential and it's the main reason why I only cautiously venture back into comics to see what's going on.  I feel like a lot of writers just carry the problems foreward because it's the established pattern and they don't know what to do with them beyond what's already been done.  Even if dipping back into the much older issues would, I think, give them plenty of ideas if they were interested.  Just doesn't seem like they are.
Title: Re: Romy: Your take ... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: purplevit on June 18, 2020, 03:07:28 AM

Hi, Varia :)

Workaholic Rogue in MMX and  Gambit that assumed Rogue would go help Logan and Scott first felt real for me. Last arc in MMX is my favorite from  this series. They are not perfect as individuals and not as couple but it is normal. No one are.


MMX had some awesome moments and some not good. Overall for me it was fine and probably had more good things.
Title: Re: Romy: Your take ... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: Varia on June 18, 2020, 12:16:45 PM
Hi purplevit!


Oh, the good definitely outweighed the bad for me, too! I didn't mean to give the impression that I thought they should be "perfect" as characters or as a couple.    That would be no fun and absolutely not realistic at all.    I think what I'm trying to get at is that I'd like to see more balance.   


Rogue is heroic and self-sacrificing and it's an aspect of her character that's always been there and that I love.   Sometimes, though, it comes off to me like she uses "X-maning" as just another excuse to run away from her feelings.  Gambit assuming she'd go to Logan and Scott before him WAS definitely realistic given the circumstances and, as he implies, it's part of what he loves about her.  Again, I'm glad she proved him wrong.  I guess that combined with the stuff in Excalibur though makes me feel like the writers just write him as passively going along, not really allowed to feel much that's in conflict with her goals. 
Title: Re: Romy: Your take ... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: purplevit on June 18, 2020, 02:37:00 PM
Yeah. Rogue is a runner and usually is running from hard choices. Don here not long ago made a few great posts about this Rogue's aspect of running from things.


Excalibur is really bad. It is just a book with a low quality of writing. In my head it never happend;)
Title: Re: Romy: Your take ... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: Varia on June 18, 2020, 03:29:27 PM
Oh? Can you direct me to where some of those posts are? I'd be very interested in reading them. 


And yeah, I'm choosing to also just ignore Excalibur, atm.   It can be hard to even do that though, because it seems to kind of pile on the idea that Gambit's problem IS Rogue, rather than just the bad writing that plagues them both.  I could be getting the wrong impression but it feels like that idea is a bit pervasive when it comes to Gambit.   I just want to see both of them written well as characters AND as a couple.   
Title: Re: Romy: Your take ... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: wantutosigh on June 18, 2020, 03:52:52 PM
In my opinion, I wish they would've just continued MMX instead of ending it for Excalibur. Excalibur is awful and honestly I'm not a fan of the X-men universe in general in the comics right now. MMX had it's issues but there was some good stuff in there including the final arc. Which could've been stretched out more had the title not been forced to end.


I think they can remain a good solid married couple for years to come, in theory. The problem is different writers come along and are either bad, not knowledgeable, don't like Gambit, have a weird obsession with Rogue, or all of the above and really screw things up and that winds up being canon and before you know it the whole thing is an ugly mess. It's hard to be optimistic about it.


I hold out hope for the MCU. It's a chance to start things over and avoid the convoluted crap they wind up doing in the comics. If it were me, I would stretch out the early flirtatious part of their relationship as long as I could because it's the funnest and also doesn't tie him down in a relationship too soon so we can see him have some fun and not have to think he's a jerk all the time because he's not being faithful.


Title: Re: Romy: Your take ... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: purplevit on June 19, 2020, 04:18:41 AM
In my opinion, I wish they would've just continued MMX instead of ending it for Excalibur. Excalibur is awful and honestly I'm not a fan of the X-men universe in general in the comics right now. MMX had it's issues but there was some good stuff in there including the final arc. Which could've been stretched out more had the title not been forced to end.


I think they can remain a good solid married couple for years to come, in theory. The problem is different writers come along and are either bad, not knowledgeable, don't like Gambit, have a weird obsession with Rogue, or all of the above and really screw things up and that winds up being canon and before you know it the whole thing is an ugly mess. It's hard to be optimistic about it.


I hold out hope for the MCU. It's a chance to start things over and avoid the convoluted crap they wind up doing in the comics. If it were me, I would stretch out the early flirtatious part of their relationship as long as I could because it's the funnest and also doesn't tie him down in a relationship too soon so we can see him have some fun and not have to think he's a jerk all the time because he's not being faithful.





I hold out hope for the MCU too because it is our last and only chance to get cool Gambit again. If MCU Gambit is lame then he is done.


The problem is that I was waiting as most Gambit fans for solo movie since 2014. If D+ rumours are true then end 2023 or 2024 is the earliest possible dates for it release. It is 10 years of waiting of Gambit solo content. Crazy.



Title: Re: Romy: Your take ... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: DonPriceTag on June 21, 2020, 11:59:53 AM
I think a lot of the problems we have with the characters being unevenly represented is the lack of editorial control. Most of this boils down to writers basically being allowed to do whatever they want. Throughout all time coming through the 90s, while every writer wouldn't be the same or have the similar ideas as the last - they'd at least respect what came before.


I believe the separation between writer and editor showed up around New X-Men, Morrison's run. Marvel editors seemed to be intimidated by the man. They had more reverence for his freedom than they did Claremont in terms of how different he was allowed to interpret the X-Men. They let him change everything seemingly overnight. It might have been at their request as it came right after the X-Men movie.


For all it did for the franchise in my opinion it hurt the comics grasp of continuity as the company wanted to ride the movie franchise's coat tails. That's also where we had a huge drop off between Gambit and Rogue. Rogue was a major player in the movie, thus got more attention whole those who were not got sidelined, banished and in a couple cases, killed off.


Whether they liked it or not, the couple was still a draw up to that point but again, with little oversight creators like Milligan and Carey (another Morrison super star writer type) didn't have their ideas reigned in and just went off the wall. We got Deathbit and then Racky Lebeau. Neither faired well against the movie darling Rogue had been turned into. Gambit became a running joke and with all the freedom given to the Remenders, Duggans, and Carey's of the world, they openly mocked the character with no correction.
Title: Re: Romy: Your take ... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: Varia on June 21, 2020, 01:01:03 PM
Quote from: DonPriceTag link=topic=5223.   msg78022#msg78022 date=1592755193
Neither faired well against the movie darling Rogue had been turned into.    Gambit became a running joke and with all the freedom given to the Remenders, Duggans, and Carey's of the world, they openly mocked the character with no correction.   


Which is interesting because Rogue in the movies, IMHO, paled drastically against Rogue in XTAS and the comics.    Even when she was being shopped as a possible team-up with Logan in one of his films, it was as a damsel-in-distress.   


Either way, I agree with you about the lack of editorial oversight and the lack of regard for continuity.   It seems like writers are often at a loss for how to take the characters (not just Rogue & Gambit) forward in a way that still takes what's come before into consideration.   So, they basically either throw stuff at the walls to see what sticks for the characters they don't know how to handle or.  .  .   bring their personal fanfiction to life in the case of the characters they're actually interested in.  Weird Frankenstein creations result. . .
Title: Re: Romy: Your take ... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: purplevit on June 22, 2020, 06:01:55 AM
I remember how KT told that Editor for R&G mini knew almost nothing about Gambit or Rogue. How you put an editor for a book if he had no idea how characters should be written or their story?


I am sure that Excalibur editor also had no idea about characters history and higher editors just don`t care.
Title: Re: Romy: Your take ... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: anya on June 22, 2020, 11:32:16 AM
I hadn’t heard that, but I can’t say I’m surprised.


Don has a point about the movies too. Even though rogue (and cyclops) didn’t do well in the movies, they were there so it was enough to keep them in circulation. From there it was writers who were extreme fanboys who were given a lot of leeway.
Title: Re: Romy: Your take ... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: Toadman005 on June 23, 2020, 05:56:12 PM
I remember how KT told that Editor for R&G mini knew almost nothing about Gambit or Rogue. How you put an editor for a book if he had no idea how characters should be written or their story?


I am sure that Excalibur editor also had no idea about characters history and higher editors just don`t care.


Modern Marvel for you. Qualifications of talent aren't necessary.
Title: Re: Romy: Your take ... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: andresa on June 24, 2020, 09:32:07 AM
From there it was writers who were extreme fanboys who were given a lot of leeway.



Modern Marvel for you. Qualifications of talent aren't necessary.


That's why I can’t seem to enjoy current comics anymore. I’m so fed up with the same characters being in the spotlight over and over again, characters that I don’t even care for. I don’t like Cyclops, I don’t like the Summers family members and their redundant personalities, and it’s been about them for the past twenty years, while my favorite character is treated like 90’s worst garbage. Because a group of nostalgic fanboys decided that everything from that point on is garbage.

When fanboys do the job of professionals, combined with inadequate editors, quality goes down the drain and fanfiction becomes canon. And while some fans continue to buy anything that is thrown their way and put these guys on a pedestal, nothing will change, even with decline in sales. Take Carey as an example, the last year or so of his run was totally crap, or Hickman, who is worshipped even though he obviously plagiarized a plot point of another book and changed Moira in a way that doesn’t even make much sense. And it’s all about the same characters again plus Moira, which suddenly became everyone’s favorite.

Only hope for Gambit and some other underutilized characters now is getting a decent role in the MCU.
Title: Re: Romy: Your take ... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: Nekobaghira on July 05, 2020, 02:04:39 PM
Most of you know, I don't care for Rogue. And that is completely based on a story that was damaging to her character. The continued damage via fanboys had not helped in my view.

That said, there was a time I did like the relationship. The problem is and still exists, as readers we've been given the same old baggage for the couple since the 1990's.

There is such a thing as too much angst, too much the same will they, won't they. It fails on TV too. Mulder/Scully for example. I just couldn't take that 'romantic tension' for however many episodes/seasons/years. Its a tedious thing to endure.

Sure, the time line is far shorter in comic books but as long time reader the whole 'slow burn' and battles to be together after awhile loses its allure.
Every couple does have the ups and downs but when amplified to the max the way Marvel's writers present the material is just fatiguing.

All that said, what I would do. I'd stop with the power/trust and other bulls*** the couple has endured for far too long. Gambit needs his personality back and I would bring back full fold to the days of the 1990's. That is the guy Rogue fell for, not this farce that KT and TH has created. And it started with KT, you like her work, great. I'm happy for you, but she started his downfall. TH just amplifies it. Did KT fix some things, I guess but she didn't do Gambit any favors. TH has no clue about the relationship or how to handle it. Since continuity doesn't matter anymore, why hold on to the old baggage. Throw it out like everything else Marvel does.

Next, put them in positions of power that might conflict and show them as a couple working through those things and making it work, via communication, compromise and a little strife until they figure it out. That would be a good challenge to showcase both and possible get my interest in romy again. It would also showcase both personalities without sacrificing one for the other.
My quarters worth. :)
Title: Re: Romy: Your take ... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: Varia on July 05, 2020, 05:55:44 PM
You said a lot that I was trying to say myself, about the constant push, pull, and major drama.      Again, I feel that's a result of writers not knowing how to write healthy couples who have problems but work through them, while still making them interesting.      Heck, I think a lot of writers rely on the amateur solution of keeping fans in a constant state of worry, rather than interest.   In other words.     .     .      they don't know how to show conflict in shades of grey.      It all has to be to the max or none at all.     


I do disagree, though, about KT being the beginning of Gambit's downfall.      I suppose it's somewhat typical, but I lay that dubious honor at the feet of Mike Carey.      I'm not saying there weren't times in his run that were good for Gambit and the others.      I mean, I appreciate the simple fact that he ALLOWED Rogue to get SOME control over her powers.      But, the times where the writing was bad.     .     .     was REALLY bad.     It felt as if Carey was treating the like cheap puppets rather than people.   Gambit wasn't the only one to suffer, though.      A lot of the characters did.      Not least of all, Rogue.   Magneto wasn't done any favors either.      All of them came out of that whole debacle as weaker characters than when they went in.     


Edited to Add: Not sure why there are weird space issues in my post.
Title: Re: Romy: Your take ... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: purplevit on July 06, 2020, 05:02:33 AM
Romy as couple is not a problem.


Bad writing and editors that are not doing their work are a problem.
Title: Re: Romy: Your take ... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: anya on July 07, 2020, 11:49:32 AM
Ultimately, it is the writers responsibility. I’d agree with Varia, and go more with carey. He started the ‘nice guy-loser’, verging on benevolent stalker, characterization. He set up other things, and was capable of doing more,  but never followed through, because he just didn’t care.
Title: Re: Romy: Your take ... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: Varia on July 07, 2020, 03:01:00 PM
Come to think of it, there were some pretty bad times before Carey, too, though.         Like when Gambit blamed Rogue for his blinding and then Death Gambit, etc.         To me other examples of the writers not understanding either of them.         Carey at least did away with Death Gambit without much fuss.        .        .         Then it just all crashed again.        I wonder though if Carey tends to be labeled as "where it started" because people feel that Rogue and Magneto, at least, came out of it appearing more dominant and in control than Gambit, so it felt a bit more degrading and pronounced?


Remembering all of this, it kinda begins to bug me that none of it's really brought up, when, as far as I know, it's still as canonical as Rogneto and just as irritating.      I'm not talking about here, I'm just venting some frustrations that have built up for years.      I'd like to just pretend none of it happened either, but unless a serious reboot is announced, it all still happened.      Like, a lot of KT's run (again, most of which I loved) centered around the problems Rogue has perpetrated in the relationship, like Antarctica, running off, etc.      Of course these things should be brought up, but come to think of it, it does kind of feel like Gambit is there to just nod and go along without having to face up to the stuff he's done in the same sessions.      Rogue's actions like Antarctica and Magneto constantly need explaining and long conversations about, but Gambit's blaming of her and his actually trying to kill her don't? Could be mis-remembering though.      It's been a while since I've read them.     


This isn't to say that a blame game should start.      Quite the opposite; both characters have been the victims of bad writing, often at the same time.  It's been going on for too long, and I think purplevit sums it up in saying ROMY isn't the problem; bad writers and editors are.     
Title: Re: Romy: Your take... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: RomeoSvengali on July 07, 2020, 08:58:37 PM
I always thought that the beginning of Gambit's downfall was with Peter Milligan in 2005 and 06 when he, for no reason other than he hated Gambit, tried to ruined their relationship by making it seem as if Gambit cheated on Rogue. He created a new character Pulse (most likely based on himself to fulfill a teenage fantasy) to be Rogue's new love interest (I don't think Pulse has ever been seen or even mention since X-Men Vol.2 #187 in 2006) and started the whole Death Gambit crap. Others who came after him didn't really help either of them.
Title: Re: Romy: Your take ... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: hairlesscat on July 07, 2020, 11:02:59 PM
I hold out hope for the MCU. It's a chance to start things over and avoid the convoluted crap they wind up doing in the comics. If it were me, I would stretch out the early flirtatious part of their relationship as long as I could because it's the funnest and also doesn't tie him down in a relationship too soon so we can see him have some fun and not have to think he's a jerk all the time because he's not being faithful.
I'm calling it right now: I believe that the MCU has something substantial planned for Gambit as a character. The push to put him in that new game ahead of some other fan favourites, the fact that my Gambit alert on Google shows a new article about Gambit popping up every few days, and the fact that even the X-office seems to be using him more (not well, but certainly MORE) all point to it. Gambit is, in my opinion as a reader and writer, an amazing character. He has depth of personality, he has a unique and interesting backstory, and sex appeal to boot. Any halfway competent director/producer would be able to recognize his potential and exploit it.
Title: Re: Romy: Your take ... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: purplevit on July 08, 2020, 03:18:30 AM
I hope too. But won`t get too excited yet.
X-Office is not using him more. He is just a supporting at best in 1 satellite X book. He wasn`t at all in HOX POX and probably won`t do anything in next big Swords of X event.
Title: Re: Romy: Your take... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: Toadman005 on July 08, 2020, 02:09:33 PM
I always thought that the beginning of Gambit's downfall was with Peter Milligan in 2005 and 06 when he, for no reason other than he hated Gambit, tried to ruined their relationship by making it seem as if Gambit cheated on Rogue. He created a new character Pulse (most likely based on himself to fulfill a teenage fantasy) to be Rogue's new love interest (I don't think Pulse has ever been seen or even mention since X-Men Vol.2 #187 in 2006) and started the whole Death Gambit crap. Others who came after him didn't really help either of them.


Given how poorly Gambit was portrayed in that entire era...being blinded, whiney, useless, blue-balled, possibly unfaithful, incompetent, cowardly, and eventually a traitor, before taking time off, yeah....that was pretty bad.


IMO Gambit's popularity has dipped many times. It didn't help when his big secret was revealed...that undercut a lot of his character. Then, a hiatus. His return was fine, but, once the X-Men movie came out, and sequel, and he wasn't featured...and then, cartoons and comics (especially Morrison's run) featured film focused characters, it dipped more. Being subjugated to lesser titles, being badly written, etc etc etc. I think so much is many writers hated Gambit and buried him, and then, those that came after him, had no concept of him.
Title: Re: Romy: Your take ... What would you do, if you could.
Post by: anya on July 08, 2020, 10:15:09 PM
About Milligan, yes true, though he wrote everyone terribly, so it came out as a bit of a wash, IMO.