GambitGuild
Gambit => Gambit => Topic started by: malachi on January 30, 2020, 05:25:31 PM
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I actually opened up my marvel unlimited app yesterday and did my first reading of Carey's non legacy issues. Then I went through Messiah Complex and through his Xavier legacy issues. Much of it read better then I remembered it too. His X-men issues where very well executed. Bachello's art is a soft spot since Gen X for me. Damn that man can do interesting panel layouts and backgrounds.
Gambit in Messiah Complex was a very good. Better then I rememberd.
The fact that Carey used him so much in his Xavier issues and also that he didn't use any other character I think was severly underestimated for me. It's stands to reason Carey actually enjoyed Gambit quite a bit. Up to Rogue leaving Australia it was set up for a comeback of Romy. Then Carey, by own admission, wanted to suprise us and and went with Rogneto. Witch I am skeptical towards rereading. Is it as bad as I remember? or was it so bad because Gambit was underused and we thought this was the new future status Quo?
Overall the care, heart and pacing Carey employed is top notch. Almost to good for comics it felt. Like a luxury that couldn't last. Witch brings me back into the present. Comparing Gambit in those issues to Tini's it's nto only a matter of how well the author gets the character. Or even the dialouge. Its that Carey understood witch moments where needed and witch moments perhaps was less essential for the plot but more so for us readers. All his characters had their moments in the battles. Played a part in the story. To a degree basics. But someone who masters the basics are often a sign of someone great. Tini really pales here and I appreciate Carey's Gambit even more so comparing it to hers. In the end Carey's biggest crime was that his Gambit was to centered on Rogue, witch made him passive, and becasue we knew the man could probalby write on of the best Gambits through publication. Whitch instead Gambit sort of got lost in the shuffle.
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I actually opened up my marvel unlimited app yesterday and did my first reading of Carey's non legacy issues. Then I went through Messiah Complex and through his Xavier legacy issues. Much of it read better then I remembered it too. His X-men issues where very well executed. Bachello's art is a soft spot since Gen X for me. Damn that man can do interesting panel layouts and backgrounds.
Gambit in Messiah Complex was a very good. Better then I rememberd.
The fact that Carey used him so much in his Xavier issues and also that he didn't use any other character I think was severly underestimated for me. It's stands to reason Carey actually enjoyed Gambit quite a bit. Up to Rogue leaving Australia it was set up for a comeback of Romy. Then Carey, by own admission, wanted to suprise us and and went with Rogneto. Witch I am skeptical towards rereading. Is it as bad as I remember? or was it so bad because Gambit was underused and we thought this was the new future status Quo?
Overall the care, heart and pacing Carey employed is top notch. Almost to good for comics it felt. Like a luxury that couldn't last. Witch brings me back into the present. Comparing Gambit in those issues to Tini's it's nto only a matter of how well the author gets the character. Or even the dialouge. Its that Carey understood witch moments where needed and witch moments perhaps was less essential for the plot but more so for us readers. All his characters had their moments in the battles. Played a part in the story. To a degree basics. But someone who masters the basics are often a sign of someone great. Tini really pales here and I appreciate Carey's Gambit even more so comparing it to hers. In the end Carey's biggest crime was that his Gambit was to centered on Rogue, witch made him passive, and becasue we knew the man could probalby write on of the best Gambits through publication. Whitch instead Gambit sort of got lost in the shuffle.
Yep, I feel like a lot of Gambit fans are too hard on Carey. You won't find anyone that hates the Rogneto mess in his run more than me(and really that actually reflected more poorly on Rogue's character, while Gambit came off as the mature one), but for the most part I enjoyed his run and his Gambit. And like you said he pretty consistently used Gambit and returned him from the Milligan induced limbo state(while fixing him at the same time), so he obviously has some fondness for the character.
And yeah, the Rogneto aspects are pretty rough reading in those later X-Men Legacy issues, but the overall stories are still enjoyable imo. I would think knowing how things turned out in the long run regarding Rogneto and Gambit and Rogue(Asmus Gambit, Thompson Rogue and Gambit), would make the read more enjoyable as well.
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lol, I think it's a really good thing that Gambit's in 2 books, if one stinks, then there's another avenue.
Will he play a significant role in this new book? Maybe not...but if he's written respectfully, that's all I ask for at this point.
Yep, that's pretty much where I'm at at this point. I just want Gambit written decently somewhere. I hate legacy heroes that take on an original hero's name or powers, but I am still giving this a shot for Gambit. And hey, at least it looks like someone respects him in the comic. That will be a nice change of pace from Howard's Excalibur where almost everyone dumps on him(I really can't recall anything like it).
The only thing I'm not looking forward to is Gambit's powers suddenly being more effective for this new Gambit girl than they have been for Gambit anywhere outside his solo and co-series appearances for years. Also sorry for the double post, I meant to respond to this too above.
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I haven't read Carey's run thoroughly in a long time but from what I remember Gambit was well written during Messiah Complex. It was a very delicate time coming back from the Death mess but Gambit came off two-dimensional and in character. Loved when he attacked Cannonball so the latter could escape otherwise he would've been killed.
When it got to Xavier's Legacy, it went downhill fast. Gambit was dumb and useless. How many times did Xavier have to tell him that it wasn't really Rogue after Gambit had gone running to save her?
And then there was Rogneto (I always throw up in my mouth a little at the mere mention of it). That pathetic forced self-insert mediocrity.
Something that irked me back then was how well Carey described Gambit in interviews. It was clear he understood the character and what made him tick. Unfortunately his knowledge never seemed to really translate into the books much less in the later issues. He probably didn't care enough, after all, it was all about Rogue. Ironically his lack of interest in Gambit backfired when Gambit came on top and Rogue came off careless and naive.
Putting all that into perspective, Tini Howard is so incompetent that Gambit in Excalibur is more unrecognizable than under Carey's pen.
I'm not expecting anything from Children of the Atom, to be honest but if it turns out well for Gambit I'll pick it up.
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Tempted to make a new thread for comparing writers instead of using this one, that tells the rest where to find Gambit. Let me know what you think. I can if you want, if not. It's okay as long as all of you are okay with the topics. :)
I have a couple of thoughts but I'll stick to Carey for now, touch upon Liu and I can't deal with Howard. My suspicions for why she is not good with Gambit can't be substantiated so, I'm going to leave it alone. But .... I think there is some influence on her part that effects Gambit.
That said: Here we go.
For myself - the most disappointing thing about Carey was the fact, he did know Gambit. He understood the character, his interviews about the character showcased his knowledge and understanding. I think instead of holding the character captive (not allowing others to write Gambit), it would have benefited both the writer and character from exposure in other books. Carey's use would haven't seem so stiffing if there was another outlet for fans.
I do think Carey wrote alright stories but I'm not a fan of Rogue, so to have her be the focus was an issue. He did build her up, he did move her forward in maturity and powers and he tried to endear her and for some he was successful.
Rogneto never bothered me outside of how Rogue took Gambit's heart felt words as her reasoning for having sex with Magneto. That was a pretty bad characterization. I'm certain Carey didn't expect the reaction it got. Not going to touch on the ageism stuff with Rogneto.
I do applaud Carey for sticking to his story ideas and not being pushed or bullied by fans to change his plans. He stuck by his stories and defended them. He was also successful with the Legacy book for several years. I say he can write, even if I didn't enjoy the focus.
Gambit still had agency, a personality and he was his own character under Carey, even if I wasn't happy with the story ideas or focus. Carey didn't take those things from Gambit.
Once Liu got permission to use Gambit, while he was in Carey's book. Liu did do a better job with the character and it gave the Gambit fan a place to at least get some Gambit story elements that were not all focused on Rogue.
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I have opinions on pretty much every Gambit writer. So fel free to make a thread :)
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Replies on Carey: I think one could divide his run into three Gambit eras.
First - Marauders: Witch is great. Gambit is sneaky, doublecrosses and actually get things done.
Second - Xavier: A more relaxed Gambit who has his own misstakes and acomplishment. He is a bit ineffiecent in fights but also charges Shaw(whitch is Remy's idea, pluspoints there).
Third - Rogue: More passive and revolving around Rogue. A mature and okay Gambit. The biggest problem would be that mature and passive doesn't lead to much panels and not many great scenes when he actually gets panels. Pluspoints for not doing anything overly stupid and essentially being in character. The biggest problem perhaps is that all the agency and power in this relationship was given to Rogue. Where it pretty much has stayed since then. With the exception of Asmus.
New Writer Marjorie Liu:
First off I will say I love this woman. As a writer she is sublime in finding new angles in Gambit and essentially she saves Remy after Carey saved him from Death. Liu saved him from revolving around Rogue. She did so by introducing a new girl, X-23. But Remy's and Lauras relationship just adds layers to them both. Perhaps even more to Remy. It takes us back to his introduction where he helped Storm. The man can't say no when a girl is in trouble.
Thanks to Liu's patient and methodical work the two grew closer and for me the peak is the Paris arc. Remy interacing with Logan and Jubilee is just great. Logan is relaxed and on equall footing with Remy. It reminds us that when the X-men is written correctly Logan is perhaps one of Remy's best friends. The two understand each other and shouldn't blame each other(witch a inferior writer would use for cheap drama). Remy's playful interaction with an delightful impish Jubilee is also fun. She jokes with him in a way that shows warmth and he repsonds like an old friend or even big brother.
I will reread her astonishing run soon. Where Liu gave us the kittens! Thank you for that!
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Whew. Okay, my thoughts on Carey are this…he seems not so bad by comparison of a lot of what we got right before, and directly after. I don’t mean to take issue with what you wrote, but, I have to weigh in with a different position.
Messiah Complex. Yes, Gambit has a big role…and it’s not necessarily bad…but, is it REALLY that good, either? Lets re-examine a lot of Gambit’s “feats” during it, and subsequent run, and we’ll se his accomplishments aren’t that great, and the good ones mitigated in some way. Lets begin. Gambit shows back up in X-Men 200, when he and Sunfire ambush Cable. Now, Gambit returns in heroic form…gets the drop on Cable, having sought him out, gets a (beautiful) whole page splash, and comes across as cool. He attacks Cable, after tipping him off, and Cable launches a self destruct and they escape. But, at the same time, while Gambit and Sunfire get the better of Cable, it’s 2 v 1…not 1 v 1. Also, Cable “caught” Gambit’s cards…it was a sneak attack by Sunfire that hurt Cable (before Gambits cards). So, yeah, Gambit both “won” the encounter, came off as sneaky, and tipped Cable off….he still only won with Sunfire’s help, via a sneak attack, Sunfire did the most damage, and Cable seemed none too threatened by Remy. Gambit then joins the rest of the marauders, and while he “saves Sam” and destroys Destiny’s Diaries, he’d gotten punched when Cannonball threw (the tornado guy, I forget his name…whiplash?) at Gambit.
Now, the scene where he reminisces his relationship with Rogue, before talking to Mystique are good…as, arguably, is his threatening Sinister (though Sinister dismisses him) are good. But, when the X-Men confront Sinister and the Marauders and Acolytes later, Gambit does not participate in the fight. When Wolverine confronts him, he kicks Gambit’s ass in the most one sided fight they ever had. Now, in Carey’s notes, it was supposed to be a stalemate where Gambit told Logan Cable had the baby but they were NOT living with Rogue…so, he had good intentions, but instead, Gambit got punked.
Next we see Remy, he and the Marauders save Destiny by ambushing Bishop after he bushwhacked Cable. Now, while Gambit lead the team, and delivered the final blow to take Bishop down/out, it was still 6 v 1. Again, mitigating a Gambit “cool” moment. When the climactic fight is happening, he doesn’t participate, he sits by Rogue’s side playing solitaire. When Mystique tried bring Rogue (and thus killing the baby),Gambit, again in Carey’s notes, was to “take Mystique out”. In panel? He gets shoved by her. Again, rather than Gambit take out an opponent (Mystique, Cable, Bishop) he, at best, stalemates. An of course, while he is heavily featured post MC with Xavier, which is cool, he got his ass kicked by a group of ninja’s….he had to essentially power Shaw to do something he couldn’t…and of course, he cucked out to Rogneto. I’m sorry, but, while Carey may have liked Gambit as a character, and featured him a lot, I don’t see a lot of accomplishments or feats of note. At best, he comes across as capable, but, weak.
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Whew. Okay, my thoughts on Carey are this…he seems not so bad by comparison of a lot of what we got right before, and directly after. I don’t mean to take issue with what you wrote, but, I have to weigh in with a different position.
Messiah Complex. Yes, Gambit has a big role…and it’s not necessarily bad…but, is it REALLY that good, either? Lets re-examine a lot of Gambit’s “feats” during it, and subsequent run, and we’ll se his accomplishments aren’t that great, and the good ones mitigated in some way. Lets begin. Gambit shows back up in X-Men 200, when he and Sunfire ambush Cable. Now, Gambit returns in heroic form…gets the drop on Cable, having sought him out, gets a (beautiful) whole page splash, and comes across as cool. He attacks Cable, after tipping him off, and Cable launches a self destruct and they escape. But, at the same time, while Gambit and Sunfire get the better of Cable, it’s 2 v 1…not 1 v 1. Also, Cable “caught” Gambit’s cards…it was a sneak attack by Sunfire that hurt Cable (before Gambits cards). So, yeah, Gambit both “won” the encounter, came off as sneaky, and tipped Cable off….he still only won with Sunfire’s help, via a sneak attack, Sunfire did the most damage, and Cable seemed none too threatened by Remy. Gambit then joins the rest of the marauders, and while he “saves Sam” and destroys Destiny’s Diaries, he’d gotten punched when Cannonball threw (the tornado guy, I forget his name…whiplash?) at Gambit.
Now, the scene where he reminisces his relationship with Rogue, before talking to Mystique are good…as, arguably, is his threatening Sinister (though Sinister dismisses him) are good. But, when the X-Men confront Sinister and the Marauders and Acolytes later, Gambit does not participate in the fight. When Wolverine confronts him, he kicks Gambit’s ass in the most one sided fight they ever had. Now, in Carey’s notes, it was supposed to be a stalemate where Gambit told Logan Cable had the baby but they were NOT living with Rogue…so, he had good intentions, but instead, Gambit got punked.
Next we see Remy, he and the Marauders save Destiny by ambushing Bishop after he bushwhacked Cable. Now, while Gambit lead the team, and delivered the final blow to take Bishop down/out, it was still 6 v 1. Again, mitigating a Gambit “cool” moment. When the climactic fight is happening, he doesn’t participate, he sits by Rogue’s side playing solitaire. When Mystique tried bring Rogue (and thus killing the baby),Gambit, again in Carey’s notes, was to “take Mystique out”. In panel? He gets shoved by her. Again, rather than Gambit take out an opponent (Mystique, Cable, Bishop) he, at best, stalemates. An of course, while he is heavily featured post MC with Xavier, which is cool, he got his ass kicked by a group of ninja’s….he had to essentially power Shaw to do something he couldn’t…and of course, he cucked out to Rogneto. I’m sorry, but, while Carey may have liked Gambit as a character, and featured him a lot, I don’t see a lot of accomplishments or feats of note. At best, he comes across as capable, but, weak.
You should feel free to take issue with what I wrote. It's after all my subjective take on it. On that day and in that hour ;)
But because I think stuff like this is fun I will happily respond. Overall I agree with you. It's all about the lenses I'm viewing it through. In this case it comes from the background of the horrible Tini-version we got going. Added too that I found a facebook post Carey wrote where he at least aknowledged he should have tackled the trial of Gambit. Overall I liked his ability to aknowledge the misstakes he made. Mostly because I'm used to us fans not getting that. Somethign I dispise in current politics around the globe. Just admit when you made a misstake and try to do better next time.
The cable moment for me is his MC high point. He throws the cards witch Cable intercept. Says something to let us know the cards where a diversion for Sunfire that attacks from above. When Cable dispatches Sunfire we realise that Gambit time charged the cards and they are waiting right bellow where Cable lands. Hurting him enough to send him running. Remy and Sunfire follows but Gambit just wants him to escape now since he allready has gotten the phrase " a minute before dawn" from Gambit and started his computer search on it. It seems like Sunfire isn't a part of Gambits plan so he also has to manage that aspect.
On the rest of MC his altercation with Logan was bad. Mostly since it seemed Gambit just wanted Logan to leave him alone. In the end It's Logan for me who comes out looking bad, well more bad at least, since he didn't listen to Gambit.
Cannonball is a good moment witch I'm a bit perplexed with since I first thought that destroying the journals where his main objective(to keep Rogue alive) and it seems he's more interested in saving Cannonball. Maybe it's a two for teh price of one. With a bit of luck involved. It's the luck part I'm not to fond of then.
The rest of MC he sits out witch I can understand. He has no desire to fight teh X-men or help Sinister. He wants to save Rogue and his selfhatred is very high here. Maybe he just wants her to forgive him. I think this is the only time his revolving around Rogue-personality works since it's at this depserate time and his selfworth is so low.
My take of his interaction with Mystique was that she held the cards and when her plan seemingly failed he stayed to make sure and she broke down. Showing us the difference between the two. I should find the issues you have with notes in them. Didn't know about that.
Xavier is a mixed bag. I'm probably just too happy that he was included to be as critical as I should be. I cringed at the assasin fight(guild of assasins?). In general Shaw might work well as a worst kind of opponent for Remy. Still It started this whole "Gambit can't touch them and looks more like a nusience then a X-man". Some good Xavier-Remy interactions though. Not the best but mediocre and it's an interesting mix. The australia arc was just bad except for the last scene and kiss with Rogue.
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Gambit's stories revolving around Rogue, this trend started with Mike Carey (then Gage pushed the volume up to 11)
I was always under the impression that Carey was lukewarm with Gambit, in interviews Rogue was the dominant topic of conversation, and then later Magneto. It reflected on print.
His handling of Gambit was fine at the start, though I thought his character was watered down, lost his charm, lacked charisma, quite dull in parts, not really the ideal Gambit I wanted to read...and then after the "Harbour Speech", he lost his purpose (and even a little pathetic in parts). He should've given the character to Gillen who stated that he wanted to use him in Uncanny. I'll give Carey a tick for having Gambit bond with Xavier. AoX and Blinded by the Light were reasonable showings. But there's nothing Gambit did that really pops in his entire run, and he was in his cast for quite a few years come to think of it.
As a writer overall, he was great with 'Adjectiveless X-Men' #188-207, 'Messiah Complex' is one of my favourite X-Men crossovers 'Blinded by the Light' and 'Supernovas' were the standouts. I started to lose interest in the Xavier arc in Legacy. The only thing I liked in Legacy was the first few chapters of AoX, but thought its ending fell flat.
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You should feel free to take issue with what I wrote. It's after all my subjective take on it. On that day and in that hour ;)
But because I think stuff like this is fun I will happily respond. Overall I agree with you. It's all about the lenses I'm viewing it through. In this case it comes from the background of the horrible Tini-version we got going. Added too that I found a facebook post Carey wrote where he at least aknowledged he should have tackled the trial of Gambit. Overall I liked his ability to aknowledge the misstakes he made. Mostly because I'm used to us fans not getting that. Somethign I dispise in current politics around the globe. Just admit when you made a misstake and try to do better next time.
The cable moment for me is his MC high point. He throws the cards witch Cable intercept. Says something to let us know the cards where a diversion for Sunfire that attacks from above. When Cable dispatches Sunfire we realise that Gambit time charged the cards and they are waiting right bellow where Cable lands. Hurting him enough to send him running. Remy and Sunfire follows but Gambit just wants him to escape now since he allready has gotten the phrase " a minute before dawn" from Gambit and started his computer search on it. It seems like Sunfire isn't a part of Gambits plan so he also has to manage that aspect.
On the rest of MC his altercation with Logan was bad. Mostly since it seemed Gambit just wanted Logan to leave him alone. In the end It's Logan for me who comes out looking bad, well more bad at least, since he didn't listen to Gambit.
Cannonball is a good moment witch I'm a bit perplexed with since I first thought that destroying the journals where his main objective(to keep Rogue alive) and it seems he's more interested in saving Cannonball. Maybe it's a two for teh price of one. With a bit of luck involved. It's the luck part I'm not to fond of then.
The rest of MC he sits out witch I can understand. He has no desire to fight teh X-men or help Sinister. He wants to save Rogue and his selfhatred is very high here. Maybe he just wants her to forgive him. I think this is the only time his revolving around Rogue-personality works since it's at this depserate time and his selfworth is so low.
My take of his interaction with Mystique was that she held the cards and when her plan seemingly failed he stayed to make sure and she broke down. Showing us the difference between the two. I should find the issues you have with notes in them. Didn't know about that.
Xavier is a mixed bag. I'm probably just too happy that he was included to be as critical as I should be. I cringed at the assasin fight(guild of assasins?). In general Shaw might work well as a worst kind of opponent for Remy. Still It started this whole "Gambit can't touch them and looks more like a nusience then a X-man". Some good Xavier-Remy interactions though. Not the best but mediocre and it's an interesting mix. The australia arc was just bad except for the last scene and kiss with Rogue.
Thanks!
I mean, I see your points, and agree. Logan trying to MURDER Gambit looks really, really bad. And yeah, gambit was doing a lot in his Cable encounter...timing was everything, and Sunfire wasn't in on it. So, Gambit actually saved Cable. As for the notes by Carey, I have the Messiah Complex hardcover TPB. It IS my favorite X-story post 1999 to be fair (counting Blinded by the Light as part of it),a nd I DO enjoy it...and it is the closest to "Gambit" from his prime we've seen outside of Liu imo. I just hate that his accomplishments are so....small. The guy who once soloed the Skull Starjammers, took out Gladiator, the Phalanx, THOR, gets his ass kicked by thugs.
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Thanks!
I mean, I see your points, and agree. Logan trying to MURDER Gambit looks really, really bad. And yeah, gambit was doing a lot in his Cable encounter...timing was everything, and Sunfire wasn't in on it. So, Gambit actually saved Cable. As for the notes by Carey, I have the Messiah Complex hardcover TPB. It IS my favorite X-story post 1999 to be fair (counting Blinded by the Light as part of it),a nd I DO enjoy it...and it is the closest to "Gambit" from his prime we've seen outside of Liu imo. I just hate that his accomplishments are so....small. The guy who once soloed the Skull Starjammers, took out Gladiator, the Phalanx, THOR, gets his ass kicked by thugs.
Yeah you get sad thinking how far he has fallen with his feats. I grew up reading contest of champions number 2 and that certainly colored my internal ratings of the characters. Gambit was capable of so much more then. His powers are so creative and crafty. Instead we often get the cards. Who sometimes just go poof like a firecracker. It's a big pet peeve for me. I want to see things explode. One of the reasons I liked Carey's Gambit in MC. He felt dangerous, not only in motivaiton but with his powers. When he throws the doll it's just visually fun and dangerous. Like no other character.
Sparta: yes I had the same impression with him being lukewarm back when it was published. Carey is a bit contradictive on that subject. On one side we have the view that he is blocking others form writing him like Gillen in uncanny. Or the fact that he wrote the Origin one-shot. Something i just remember as bland. Or how little he featured in Legacy the second half. Or his half and half run in Xavier.
On the other side we have the fact that he brought Gambit back from Milligans dead end. If he wanted to focus on Rogue and then later on Magneto he would have made it easier just not to write Gambit at all. Instead he dove right into the Milligan-mess and handled it well. Made gambit into a useable character again. The fact that he used Gambit in Xaviers quest. What he did with him in Age of X.
It's odd. My personal belief is that none or close to none of this was editorially mandated. That without Carey we probably be in a much worse mess then we are. Instead we got some bad stuff that indirectly happened to Gambit and some good stuff he actually did. I think Careys heart was in teh right place but his taste led him astray.
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Sparta: yes I had the same impression with him being lukewarm back when it was published. Carey is a bit contradictive on that subject. On one side we have the view that he is blocking others form writing him like Gillen in uncanny. Or the fact that he wrote the Origin one-shot. Something i just remember as bland. Or how little he featured in Legacy the second half. Or his half and half run in Xavier.
On the other side we have the fact that he brought Gambit back from Milligans dead end. If he wanted to focus on Rogue and then later on Magneto he would have made it easier just not to write Gambit at all. Instead he dove right into the Milligan-mess and handled it well. Made gambit into a useable character again. The fact that he used Gambit in Xaviers quest. What he did with him in Age of X.
It's odd. My personal belief is that none or close to none of this was editorially mandated. That without Carey we probably be in a much worse mess then we are. Instead we got some bad stuff that indirectly happened to Gambit and some good stuff he actually did. I think Careys heart was in teh right place but his taste led him astray.
Any writer would've eventually restored Gambit from the Death-Persona, that was inevitable. He did some okay things with him, but nothing memorable really...it was very much Rogue's book.
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Any writer would've eventually restored Gambit from the Death-Persona, that was inevitable. He did some okay things with him, but nothing memorable really...it was very much Rogue's book.
Yes but I was expecting some more Milligan level crap before Gambit got restored. Also a weaker restoration arc. I'm colored by some of the horrible things DC has done over the years. Especially with my favorite Cassandra Cain. So my expectations was rather weak in that department.
Top 3 favorite characters:
1 Gambit
2 Cassandra Cain
3 Quasar
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I do applaud Carey for sticking to his story ideas and not being pushed or bullied by fans to change his plans. He stuck by his stories and defended them. He was also successful with the Legacy book for several years. I say he can write, even if I didn't enjoy the focus.
My ONLY disagreement is your use of the term "bullied". I've been hearing that a lot in comics and Hollywood as well. I'm not talking about actors. This doesnt apply. People can 100% bully them. But if your a writer of books or movies, you cant be "bullied" into anything. Your job as a writer for a for-profit company is to sell product. If what you're doing isnt resonating with your customers, it's not really appropriate to "stick" to anything. You cannot be an immovable object when you're trying to endear your product to potential customers. That's how business dies - unless they hold some sort of monopoly or exclusivity and customers just have to deal with it.
That's kind of how we relate to X-Men and Gambit. We too often just have to "deal with it" because there's no where else to go. Carey did stick to his guns, but almost as soon as he left, his romantic thread was erased. And that's because it wasn't resonating. If it was, believe me, Marvel would have ridden that gravy train until wheels fell off. It's why its important to speak with your dollars. If your not feeling something, you're not helping by supporting the product and hoping it gets better. Voice your opinion as frequently as you want so that it is heard, and dont give them your money. Don't let them write their own narrative like PAD was able to do. Remember how he blamed the failure of ANXF on Gambit? Shouldnt work.
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I think it comes down to perspective. We all view things differently based on experience. I think you're taking me too literal as far as fan opinion goes, because I don't remember much of any discussion that was actually about the writing of the book back then, not here, nor there. It was one thing and I'll get to that in a moment. We certainly are discussing better now, how many years later (nine).
My ONLY disagreement is your use of the term "bullied". I've been hearing that a lot in comics and Hollywood as well. I'm not talking about actors. This doesnt apply. People can 100% bully them. But if your a writer of books or movies, you cant be "bullied" into anything. Your job as a writer for a for-profit company is to sell product. If what you're doing isnt resonating with your customers, it's not really appropriate to "stick" to anything. You cannot be an immovable object when you're trying to endear your product to potential customers. That's how business dies - unless they hold some sort of monopoly or exclusivity and customers just have to deal with it.
Maybe its more of a apples and oranges thing. I'm not saying don't have opinion or that discussion topics in stories isn't a good idea. That if a creator puts themselves out there that they should not be subject to critique, but how these things are presented is the issue for me. We can't look at the threads because they're gone now. All that is left is Carey defending himself on his own blog or whatnot ... if that is still there. And if I was him, I would have taken that post down years ago. He's not with Marvel, wgaf what those out of control fans think now. Irrelevant. What's in print is in print. To be clear, Carey stated more than once, he would never condone rape. That should have been the end of it, but it wasn't. That comment was practically in every thread burying comments that actually discussed the story.
People cross the line all the time and they shouldn't and should know better. With actors, writers, artists, etc. Just because talented people put themselves out there does not give fans the privilege of being total jerks to those who create for entertainment. Or to assert themselves aggressively toward those creative people. There is a difference in giving an opinion with subjective points of the work being consumed and stating hurtful comments.
Fans are crossing lines far too frequently; from grabbing actors by their necks to take a selfie then walk away and say nothing. WTF. True story from a convention where this particular actor wanted to remind fans to be nice to each other. The thing is, he would have gladly talked with that fan and done the selfie. He's good to his fans, not a good experience. To making disrespectful comments about how characters are portrayed and stating hurtful things because the fan couldn't find the right words to express with some etiquette is completely disappointing.
The reason back then I would defend and still do to a degree Carey is because I've been there done that in regards with fans. I've had unopened beer cans thrown at me, called every derogatory name in the book and believe me some of those words are awful. I've been threatened and all because I was the person they saw and the fans never recognized it was a corporate decision. Thank goodness for aliases. That was years ago, so no need for more to be said. But it does give me pause when it comes to fans and what they think they're entitled too. (I've told this story before too.)
That's kind of how we relate to X-Men and Gambit. We too often just have to "deal with it" because there's no where else to go. Carey did stick to his guns, but almost as soon as he left, his romantic thread was erased. And that's because it wasn't resonating. If it was, believe me, Marvel would have ridden that gravy train until wheels fell off. It's why its important to speak with your dollars. If your not feeling something, you're not helping by supporting the product and hoping it gets better. Voice your opinion as frequently as you want so that it is heard, and dont give them your money. Don't let them write their own narrative like PAD was able to do. Remember how he blamed the failure of ANXF on Gambit? Shouldnt work.
Agree but it should be done with respect. Speaking with dollars is the best way, I concur. What I don't want to read ever again is fans attacking those creative people because they couldn't look at the product for what it was. A book, a movie, a song, a story-line, theater, art, etc.
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Agree but it should be done with respect. Speaking with dollars is the best way, I concur. What I don't want to read ever again is fans attacking those creative people because they couldn't look at the product for what it was. A book, a movie, a song, a story-line, theater, art, etc.
I agree with that. I think it's harder to do when you feel there is no respect coming from the creative, not just for the fans, but for the characters in their care. Someone actually trying and doing their best and coming up short is one thing. Then you get someone like Bendis...
Writes his own version of characters rather than who they are. Ignores continuity, even his own. Does things largely/entirely for shock value that are in some cases permanently damaging for a character. Gets a pass because as Marvel editorial once said, "people will buy his books just to see the train-wreck". Untimately the blame should go to those who choose to employ him, but at the same time it's hard to be respectful to someone who often comes off as a bratty child gleefully breaking someone else's beloved toys.
I will always be respectful when dealing with a creative because I do that with everyone, it's a facet of my character, that doesn't necessarily mean I actually feel any respect for them...
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Perhaps the business model changed. It's the writers that are the stars instead of the characters they're writing. The writers don't care about the characters as long as whatever story they want to tell happens.
Thing is, I won't remember most of these writers because its not them in the book but the characters. It would be nice to go back character driven story telling.
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The reason back then I would defend and still do to a degree Carey is because I've been there done that in regards with fans. I've had unopened beer cans thrown at me, called every derogatory name in the book and believe me some of those words are awful. I've been threatened and all because I was the person they saw and the fans never recognized it was a corporate decision. Thank goodness for aliases. That was years ago, so no need for more to be said. But it does give me pause when it comes to fans and what they think they're entitled too. (I've told this story before too.)
Sorry that you went through all that, that's awful.
Were you involved in a big franchise?
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Sorry that you went through all that, that's awful.
Were you involved in a big franchise?
It did suck, but you know what ... every experience is a learning one.
At the time, third largest broadcast company for radio in the USA. It's no longer in existence went defunct in 2011 (I had left the company a few years prior to that), they sold the properties.
Time is an amazing healer, now if I'm recognized, people are nice. It's been very positive. :)Thank you for asking. :)
back to the topic:
It goes back to how harsh fans can be, twitter is downright mean sometimes. I've seen so many fans with so many different things throw slurs around like it was candy.
Anyway, in end. It's not having an opinion on creative material, its stating it with mediocre amount of respect. Having a discussion without throwing out projected views because of whatever is upsetting that day. :)
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Fans are crossing lines far too frequently; from grabbing actors by their necks to take a selfie then walk away and say nothing. WTF. True story from a convention where this particular actor wanted to remind fans to be nice to each other. The thing is, he would have gladly talked with that fan and done the selfie. He's good to his fans, not a good experience. To making disrespectful comments about how characters are portrayed and stating hurtful things because the fan couldn't find the right words to express with some etiquette is completely disappointing.
The reason back then I would defend and still do to a degree Carey is because I've been there done that in regards with fans. I've had unopened beer cans thrown at me, called every derogatory name in the book and believe me some of those words are awful. I've been threatened and all because I was the person they saw and the fans never recognized it was a corporate decision. Thank goodness for aliases. That was years ago, so no need for more to be said. But it does give me pause when it comes to fans and what they think they're entitled too. (I've told this story before too.)
Agree but it should be done with respect. Speaking with dollars is the best way, I concur. What I don't want to read ever again is fans attacking those creative people because they couldn't look at the product for what it was. A book, a movie, a song, a story-line, theater, art, etc.
I think I'm a rather naive person on the subject of fans. I aknowledge that there are trolls or just fans looking to profit on others missery. Those behaviours I have seen on forums. The other part. The physical meetings are more abstract for me. I wouldn't be suprised If I understimate how nasty, or how fast it gets nasty, they can get. The end of the day I'm riding this utopia train where I just want fans to support each other when their favorite characters is being treated like trash. I get very provoked when someone says they enjoy a work because a character is being written badly.
Your story sounds interesting. If there are any posts here on this fourm about it I would happily read it. If not I won't bother you with retelling it. Doesn't sound like something that is fun to retell.
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I think I'm a rather naive person on the subject of fans. I aknowledge that there are trolls or just fans looking to profit on others missery. Those behaviours I have seen on forums. The other part. The physical meetings are more abstract for me. I wouldn't be suprised If I understimate how nasty, or how fast it gets nasty, they can get. The end of the day I'm riding this utopia train where I just want fans to support each other when their favorite characters is being treated like trash. I get very provoked when someone says they enjoy a work because a character is being written badly.
I've been disappointed in comic books for awhile, so I've looked for other things to participate in and its been eye opening because I was quite naive with some things but not with others.
For awhile, I thought it rock music that exhibited poor behavior and was limited to that genre. But it seems not so much. Interesting though, all genres of music can have some obnoxious or poorly behaved fans.
However, not so naive that I haven't witnessed a thing or two when I was working in radio. An example would be fans so drunk or high at a concert they throw beer bottles at the band on stage. The first time I witnessed that, I thought, wow - are trying to give them beer? Nope. Not the case, the band was pissed and threatened to walk off stage. I guess I might have been aware for far too long, but forget as I travel through fandoms. Sadly, I had witnessed that on more than one occasion. I don't go to concerts anymore, for a variety of reasons but I'm not embarrassed by bad behavior.
Your story sounds interesting. If there are any posts here on this fourm about it I would happily read it. If not I won't bother you with retelling it. Doesn't sound like something that is fun to retell.
Sure, I'll tell you. Give me time to compose it though, its long. Probably best in pm. :)
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I've been disappointed in comic books for awhile, so I've looked for other things to participate in and its been eye opening because I was quite naive with some things but not with others.
For awhile, I thought it rock music that exhibited poor behavior and was limited to that genre. But it seems not so much. Interesting though, all genres of music can have some obnoxious or poorly behaved fans.
However, not so naive that I haven't witnessed a thing or two when I was working in radio. An example would be fans so drunk or high at a concert they throw beer bottles at the band on stage. The first time I witnessed that, I thought, wow - are trying to give them beer? Nope. Not the case, the band was pissed and threatened to walk off stage. I guess I might have been aware for far too long, but forget as I travel through fandoms. Sadly, I had witnessed that on more than one occasion. I don't go to concerts anymore, for a variety of reasons but I'm not embarrassed by bad behavior.
Sure, I'll tell you. Give me time to compose it though, its long. Probably best in pm. :)
PM sounds great.
I love going to concerts but mostly they are a very ordered affair. I live in Sweden and the artists often comment on that we are too passive as an audience ;D
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PM sounds great.
I love going to concerts but mostly they are a very ordered affair. I live in Sweden and the artists often comment on that we are too passive as an audience ;D
Okay, give me time. That story is lengthy. LOL
I don't recall being at a passive concert. There was suppose to be one it was a acoustic evening. Which is meant to be quiet, music and a passive crowd, clapping at the end of songs. They were rowdy as all get out, singing with the artist, dancing in the aisles and the artist was embarrassed as well as the place I worked for at the time. Crazy.
Okay, lets roll it back. Shall we move on to other writers and leave Carey alone? LOL
I know PAD blamed Gambit but the reality was, when he had XF prior - Marvel left him alone. They didn't when ANXF came along. The sales is different, the stories are not what we'd hope for which is more character driven than "I'm the writer, read my story" thing. He felt like the star of his book because he wanted the same freedom he had before.
I did like Marjorie Liu, I thought she handled Gambit well. Better than PAD even if she did make him a tad more romantic than anticipated.
Missed opportunity with Iceman and Gambit and the Death seed. As in working through it as friends.
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I think it comes down to perspective. We all view things differently based on experience. I think you're taking me too literal as far as fan opinion goes, because I don't remember much of any discussion that was actually about the writing of the book back then, not here, nor there. It was one thing and I'll get to that in a moment. We certainly are discussing better now, how many years later (nine). Maybe its more of a apples and oranges thing. I'm not saying don't have opinion or that discussion topics in stories isn't a good idea. That if a creator puts themselves out there that they should not be subject to critique, but how these things are presented is the issue for me. We can't look at the threads because they're gone now. All that is left is Carey defending himself on his own blog or whatnot ... if that is still there. And if I was him, I would have taken that post down years ago. He's not with Marvel, wgaf what those out of control fans think now. Irrelevant. What's in print is in print. To be clear, Carey stated more than once, he would never condone rape. That should have been the end of it, but it wasn't. That comment was practically in every thread burying comments that actually discussed the story.
People cross the line all the time and they shouldn't and should know better. With actors, writers, artists, etc. Just because talented people put themselves out there does not give fans the privilege of being total jerks to those who create for entertainment. Or to assert themselves aggressively toward those creative people. There is a difference in giving an opinion with subjective points of the work being consumed and stating hurtful comments.
Fans are crossing lines far too frequently; from grabbing actors by their necks to take a selfie then walk away and say nothing. WTF. True story from a convention where this particular actor wanted to remind fans to be nice to each other. The thing is, he would have gladly talked with that fan and done the selfie. He's good to his fans, not a good experience. To making disrespectful comments about how characters are portrayed and stating hurtful things because the fan couldn't find the right words to express with some etiquette is completely disappointing.
The reason back then I would defend and still do to a degree Carey is because I've been there done that in regards with fans. I've had unopened beer cans thrown at me, called every derogatory name in the book and believe me some of those words are awful. I've been threatened and all because I was the person they saw and the fans never recognized it was a corporate decision. Thank goodness for aliases. That was years ago, so no need for more to be said. But it does give me pause when it comes to fans and what they think they're entitled too. (I've told this story before too.)
Agree but it should be done with respect. Speaking with dollars is the best way, I concur. What I don't want to read ever again is fans attacking those creative people because they couldn't look at the product for what it was. A book, a movie, a song, a story-line, theater, art, etc.
Boss lady, your not talking about bullying, that's open assault and those ass hats would get stomped into the ground in my presence. I'm strictly talking about people feeling threatened by words flowing social media and fan mail. I'm not comparing physical harm to strongly/obsessively worded messages. Sorry you had to experience that. No one should be assaulted over fandom issues. That's straight up insane.
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I don't recall being at a passive concert. There was suppose to be one it was a acoustic evening. Which is meant to be quiet, music and a passive crowd, clapping at the end of songs. They were rowdy as all get out, singing with the artist, dancing in the aisles and the artist was embarrassed as well as the place I worked for at the time. Crazy.
I generally avoid concerts largely because I don't like being in a crowd of people. Bothers my anxiety. Also not a fan of having to deal with people who are drunk/high. Then I ended up at a ZZ Top concert as a spur-of-the-moment-type-thing. Outdoor concert in the daytime. Got there and they were serving beer and I thought, 'this is going to be a disaster, people are going to get drunk and tear crap up'. Nope, everyone was ridiculously well-behaved. At least half the people there stuck to soft-drinks and those that were having beer kept it light. Anyone acting up would have stuck out like a sore thumb. I don't know the why of it. More middle-aged/older fans, a strong police presence and having it in the daytime all probably helped. Whatever the reason for it I am grateful.
Missed opportunity with Iceman and Gambit and the Death seed. As in working through it as friends.
Yeah. I've generally always wanted more friendly interactions between them. Gambit was my second favorite character (behind Iceman) in the 90's. They bounce off each other well, even in the AoA...
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/D6kRaeevVewtMP3EAzLfGxFhkyPaYgpdQtOuDRX5nISxQXYt8_2wk8mgGxVyw7vQiKjqy1xavYpOBw=s1600)
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/or7dxDnGf6eefN_nU6dhfON8lRblsAhTygpz3sfM-j0RLF4IK1buX13g6zX8viOOyLKAySCIZiETpQ=s1600)
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I liked AoA Gambit. Thought Fabian wrote an awsome mini in Gambit and the externals. I rate it much higher then some of the other AoA minis.
For me so far no one has trumped Fabian's Gambit. He had humanity, charm, creative uses of power and he was fun. Skroce on art too was a dream team. The kinetic energy in Skroces art. The sensaulity in Gambit was for me even better then Mann.
Ages ago the last comicshop in town was closing down and me and my friend had just moved into the city. We discovered the shop as it was having it's final sell. There was a huge pile of extremly cheap comics. We rummaged through it. He bought Gambit 1-24. I bought the last 12 issues of X-man and Supreme Power(the first 12). We had no real clue about the quality but damn we got some good stuff there.
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Tini Howard has me so annoyed. Can't write any of the characters in the book except maybe Rictor in a compelling way. She uses Rogue re: babies to be her political mouthpiece basically undoing Rogue's character history. . . and Gambit? Who even acts like that let alone any super hero? He's weak, whiny and the butt of every joke. Somehow he lost all maturity and strength because Tini Howard decided to write him. The way she has treated this book is like a bad cliche.
If the book had a compelling and engaging story I could overlook some liberties but its awful to boot. How is it awful?
- As a non-Capt Britain fan I have no idea who this character is, how strong they're supposed to be or why they matter. This book is 7 issues in and still hasn't tackled that.
- The main character does not act like Betsy Braddock, she's dry and incompetent and not even likable.
- Each issue randomly meanders on without any point or any guiding arc. The plot is confusing and I have zero investment in anything that's happening.
It's like how not to write a story 101, Idk how she even got this job or what the editor is thinking.
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I don't know how she got the job either. And her idealism/feminism is outdated. And her perspective is skewed from a pov that does nothing for Gambit and makes Rogue antiquated. Not to mention the baby topic she probably has no plans on exploring with all repercussion that come with pregnancy. It really is annoying.
While I know some loved KT's work and enjoyed it and thats fine. But it was her that took Gambit down this path to ruin, TH is just over amplifying the poor characterization of a character she does not relate to other than Rogue's purse.
What needs to happen is for Gambit to be in a different book without Rogue and not written by women who feel like there is some agenda. Comic books are suppose to be fun, escapism, a nice distraction from real life. Not some agenda filled propaganda for whatever. Again my opinion. And if a woman is to write him, she had better understand him and not treat him as an appendage to Rogue.
I can't relate to this version of Gambit, at all.
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To be fair it wasn't KT. It was Charles Soule in Astonishing.
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To be fair it wasn't KT. It was Charles Soule in Astonishing.
To be fair, he didn't write 17 issues of no story for Gambit but Rogue's baggage. Action sequences and pretty art does nothing if there is no story. It was all about Rogue. And you gotta like her to enjoy it. If you don't, you won't. That just is what it is. :) LOL
Please don't be offended by my comments; in my view the damage is done, and look at where Gambit is now. I am an unhappy Gambit fan because of the crap he's been in for far too many years/issues and there is nothing that I even recognize of him.
Edit: The above is just opinion of mine. Those who like certain books/writers, great. Glad it worked for those fans.
:) :)
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Don't worry, Neko. Noone is offended. We all know each other long enough to know each opinions and likes. It won't change:)
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Don't worry, Neko. Noone is offended. We all know each other long enough to know each opinions and likes. It won't change:)
Gratefully appreciated, thanks Purplevit.
True enough. LOL
Any word on this Cates guy writing Gambit?
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Gratefully appreciated, thanks Purplevit.
True enough. LOL
Any word on this Cates guy writing Gambit?
Don made a great article about it. I sent it via twitter to all Marvel heads. Cates answer kinda generated some buzz.
But nothing more at this point. We always can hope but nothing real yet.