GambitGuild
Gambit => Gambit => Topic started by: GothamGirl on March 07, 2020, 01:48:47 AM
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They could have made him bi. It wouldn't have made us question any of his previous romances. It could have been simply that he suppressed that half of himself all those years and one day become comfortably with it through a character driven story. There are people who hide the fact that they are bisexual and those that didn't are assumed to be going through a phase, gay, or straight. No. We get magic re-write.
Admin edit: Thought this topic needed its own thread. No intro for the subject but think those posting get it.
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He never was bi. I am not interested in such story.
Marvel has bi and gay characters. They should use them and not turning straight into be or gay. Iceman retcon was really bad.
Just my opinion.
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There's no reason nor need to change an established character like Gambit like that. It would’ve been an unnecessary, kinda ridiculous retcon since there have never been any hints Gambit was ever attracted to other men, it’d be for shock value only. Gambit has kept many secrets but I doubt he would've hidden something regarding his sexuality, he’s supposed to be comfortable with it.
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As far as I can remember, there were two scenes but neither scene showed Gambit as anything other than straight. He rejected Daken outright when he came onto Gambit.
There was the priest in the horrendous second mini who save Gambit's life with mouth to mouth and Gambit jokes that he liked him better when he was kissing him.
I think the point being Gambit has always been comfortable with his sexuality and has always shown an affinity for women.
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I see the Daken scene as Gambit taking advantage of the situation. And what he said to the Priest was in jest. Gambit has always been written as straight. Of course, it he had been changed into being bisexual, people would start reading past scenes differently and subvert them.
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I see the Daken scene as Gambit taking advantage of the situation. And what he said to the Priest was in jest. Gambit has always been written as straight. Of course, it he had been changed into being bisexual, people would start reading past scenes differently and subvert them.
Agreed. I thought the scene with the Priest was a joke as well. He was trying to lighten the mood when the Priest was upset about the Nun.
I also agree that Gambit played Daken - whatever advantage one can get in a fight, right? LOL
Anyway, I don't think his sexuality should be changed. There are so many characters who can handle the LGBT+ stuff really well if they have a talented writer.
There are TV shows who handle those themes better, Marvel needs to learn from that, imo.
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I see the Daken scene as Gambit taking advantage of the situation. And what he said to the Priest was in jest. Gambit has always been written as straight. Of course, it he had been changed into being bisexual, people would start reading past scenes differently and subvert them.
I would reject Daken so that means nothing. Also I referring to making iceman bi instead of gay, not Gambit. That was my fault for using "he" instead of a name.
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While not sure what Iceman's sexuality should be - I think Iceman's sexuality was handled poorly.
It was never about if he was or wasn't. It was how it was handled in the books. IMO, handled poorly and for press.
If this was the direction it should have been more organic than Jean Grey stating his preference. Iceman should have been the one to state his sexuality, not Jean telling him.
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...no...
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Well, not only is there no actual foundation or basis for it, it would be a terrible and stupid idea...just my opinion.
So, Hell No.
And by that same logic, maybe Gambit's also a transgendered woman? Or, maybe he was once a cat? Or a closeted Trump fan? Why not? Continuity be damned.
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While not sure what Iceman's sexuality should be - I think Iceman's sexuality was handled poorly.
It was never about if he was or wasn't. It was how it was handled in the books. IMO, handled poorly and for press.
If this was the direction it should have been more organic than Jean Grey stating his preference. Iceman should have been the one to state his sexuality, not Jean telling him.
Perfectly stated.
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...no...
Agreed.
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While not sure what Iceman's sexuality should be - I think Iceman's sexuality was handled poorly.
It was never about if he was or wasn't. It was how it was handled in the books. IMO, handled poorly and for press.
If this was the direction it should have been more organic than Jean Grey stating his preference. Iceman should have been the one to state his sexuality, not Jean telling him.
Amen.
That scene was atrociously bad. It was clearly for the press and to pander to the SJW's. It starts with Jean condescendingly scolding Iceman for being misogynistic/sexist. Then she smugly urges him to confess to being gay. When he plays obtuse (or, more likely, in denial) she then arrogantly tells him he is gay. When he denies it, visibly uncomfortable and upset, and tries to claim maybe he's bi, she says (woefully unaware of her own self righteous contradiction) she believes everyone's bi to some degree, but that he's completely gay. He then reluctantly and sadly relents to her essentially browbeating and bullying. And, SHE'S the HERO?
Are...you...kidding...me?!
So somehow it's perfectly acceptable for Jean Grey to abuse her telepathic powers and forcibly out a reluctant and self-conscious Bobby (with later ramifications of leading to him confronting an older Bobby), says "everyone's bi" but he's "completely gay" (apparently you can't be entirely straight, but can be entirely gay), and bullies and berates him into admission.
How that ever cleared the editing board is beyond me.
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It was Bendis, a Marvel darling at the time.
Yeah, I still laugh at the language used. "Full Gay" which makes me cringe because then there must be a partial gay or quarter gay or any other measurement one wants to use. I suppose it supports Jean's everyone is bi concept.
I don't like it in fanfic either, I don't get why there needs to be a qualifier for sexuality.
I've read things like, "extremely" gay, not sure what that means but whatever. Or "not just gay, but really gay," again, whatever. I don't think qualifier words are needed.
Certainly nobody applies qualifiers for straight or with the word hetero. Apply a qualifier for those words and its equally absurd.
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Okay. Be opposed to changing Gambit's sexuality if you want. But can we stop saying SJW like it is a bad thing or some kind of insult? Social justice is important and caring about equity and representation is not a bad thing. In fact, I don't understand how you can be a fan of the X-Men franchise and disparage "SJW". I think that is cognitive dissonance to the nth degree.
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LOL the current meaning of the term SJW is pejorative because it refers to people on the internet who problematize and are offended by absolutely everything. Representatives of modern SJW aren't really fighting for people's rights and equality; they're a bunch of hypocrites making noise while pushing double stantards and attacking anyone with a divergent opinion. To me the worst part is how these people undermine these important issues by acting like self-righteous idiots and being manipulated.
The X-Men being a diverse group was earned and was honest. Changing characters's cores for shock value isn't honest. You can't change stablished characters like Iceman on a couple of poorly-written pages and be surprised when there's backlash. And not because these people, these fans are intrinsically homophobic it's because the shift in Icenman's sexuality wasn't warranted. Why would any Gambit fan want his sexuality changed for no reason is beyond me.
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Okay. Be opposed to changing Gambit's sexuality if you want. But can we stop saying SJW like it is a bad thing or some kind of insult? Social justice is important and caring about equity and representation is not a bad thing. In fact, I don't understand how you can be a fan of the X-Men franchise and disparage "SJW". I think that is cognitive dissonance to the nth degree.
I absolutely am opposed to it, or any other characters' sexuality, race, gender or anything else that is needlessly changed.
And, in my opinion, SJW is a negative term, a bad thing. SJW's are angry, bitter, destructive ideologues who claim to be fighting for a righteous, virtuous cause (like "caring about equity and representation") when in reality they're just cowardly bullies ganged together to coop or destroy things to make others feel as miserable as they do.
I was, and always have been, a fan of the X-Men, a truly natural, organic diverse group. It had characters of multiple races and nationalities, genders, religions, ages, and yes, sexual orientations. And part of what made it earned and honest was that the characters were never troupes, cliches, tokens. They were actual characters first and foremost, who also happened to be (insert qualifier here). Gambit, for example, was a charming, thieving ladies man, devil may care man of mystery bad ass. He also happened to be creole Cajun. If anyone views a character based first and foremost by their race/sex/orientation etc rather than their character, they have a problem. Is Magneto a conflicted anti-hero or is he a Jew? And I say all this because, I always assumed Bobby Drake WAS gay...there were always some subtle hints, but it was never outright addressed because there was no need for it. And had he eventually come out, it wouldn't have bothered me in the least, if handled properly.
But, they didn't handle it properly, in fact, as shown, they handled it terribly. Pandering to the (yes, I say it with disdain) SJW's, who now run the industry and are killing it. And how has Iceman been portrayed since then? As a very outright gay first and foremost and as a character secondarily. When they established/changed Iceman from straight/ambiguous to gay, he ceased being Bobby Drake, long established character, and became gay token representation Iceman, who's totally gay you guys! Hey, hey reminder, he's gay! Like, he's on dates, and reminding his bigot parents he's gay, and he's like, making gay jokes, and talks about his gayness, and gay gay gay gay, guys! Oh, and, like, sometimes he's a hero, or whatever. But, I mean, that's secondary. Frankly, it's insulting.
So, yeah, I see SJW's and the concept of "social justice" as a bad thing. And I hate when people try and make the argument that you can't be a fan of comics, and X-Men in particular, and be opposed to what is passed off as "social justice", when it makes me want to puke because of the blatant hypocrisy and obliviousness to the fact that X-Men were and always have been the title that TRULY captured what they CLAIM to advocate for: natural, fair, honest and earnest representation rather than over the top, extreme progressive pink haired garbage.
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Wow - I haven't looked up a word in a long time. Thanks Andresa. Pejorative fits the SJW attitude that is displayed on social media. SJW's eat their own, they are not even cohesive with their general dislike of whatever the flavor of the day is. E.g. the SJW who wrote a trilogy book and had it pulled from publication because the SJW's were upset with something. I can't remember and don't care. It was fiction though and it did make the news and SJW's were brought up in the article.
Its not that anyone here doesn't want justice in social situations, its how its handled that is the problem. Bullying and shaming isn't the way to fix the injustice of social situations. Whether SJW's admit to it or not, their methods are not conducive to change and make themselves look bad. I see SJW's as a negative as well because of methodology and attitude.
Getting back to Iceman's change, change for the sake of it doesn't mean its good. His personality has completely changed. Literally 4 pages devoted to his coming out is not a coming out journey for a character with 60+ years of history. And it was Jean both times telling teenBobby and adultBobby, that he's gay. That isn't how it works, at least not with any of the gay friends I know.
Its not really a question should a character or shouldn't character be bi or not, it really should be written far more organically than shown in comic books. While I get there is only 20 pages, but if a company or writer is trying for "publicity" to sell books, then put the overall story in the background for an issue and handle the character study or issue for more than 4 pages (2 per book, and only 2 books for the outing).
Anyway, interesting topic. Even if was intended for Iceman to begin with. LOL
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Wow - I haven't looked up a word in a long time. Thanks Andresa. Pejorative fits the SJW attitude that is displayed on social media. SJW's eat their own, they are not even cohesive with their general dislike of whatever the flavor of the day is. E.g. the SJW who wrote a trilogy book and had it pulled from publication because the SJW's were upset with something. I can't remember and don't care. It was fiction though and it did make the news and SJW's were brought up in the article.
It's a common word in my language, didn't realize it wasn't that common in English LOL
There's also JK Rowling who was a SJW queen until she got "cancelled" because of a tweet by the same people she indulged for years.
Its not that anyone here doesn't want justice in social situations, its how its handled that is the problem. Bullying and shaming isn't the way to fix the injustice of social situations. Whether SJW's admit to it or not, their methods are not conducive to change and make themselves look bad. I see SJW's as a negative as well because of methodology and attitude.
Getting back to Iceman's change, change for the sake of it doesn't mean its good. His personality has completely changed. Literally 4 pages devoted to his coming out is not a coming out journey for a character with 60+ years of history. And it was Jean both times telling teenBobby and adultBobby, that he's gay. That isn't how it works, at least not with any of the gay friends I know.
I utterly agree.
Its not really a question should a character or shouldn't character be bi or not, it really should be written far more organically than shown in comic books. While I get there is only 20 pages, but if a company or writer is trying for "publicity" to sell books, then put the overall story in the background for an issue and handle the character study or issue for more than 4 pages (2 per book, and only 2 books for the outing).
I followed The Walking Dead comics for years until its end last year, and my favorite character is Jesus, a terrific character that happens to be gay. And his being gay isn't a defining trait, it's just part of this well-written, two-dimensional character. I know it's easier when there's only one writer behind a story; still Marvel could've done much better with Iceman. If the writers had taken the time to develop his coming out, shown his coming into terms with it while still keeping his essence, there wouldn't've been that much rejection.
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It's a common word in my language, didn't realize it wasn't that common in English LOL
I like learning new words. :)
There's also JK Rowling who was a SJW queen until she got "cancelled" because of a tweet by the same people she indulged for years.
Didn't know about that but … makes the whole 'eat their own' thing more poignant - imo -
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Three things...
First, I was on CBR prior to the outing of Young Iceman. You had a contingent of 'Gayers' there who kept running back-and-forth between CBR and Bendis's Tumblr page trying to get Bendis to make Young Iceman gay. They would pop in to the Iceman Appreciation Thread there and taunt the Iceman fans, bragging about what they were getting Bendis to do to Young Iceman. After they took credit for the whole 'Disney Princess' bit, I took a look at Bendis's Tumblr and what they were posting there. "Have Jean or the Professor read Iceman's mind and tell him he is gay!" "Make him bisexual, they say everyone is!" "Yes, but only as a step to making him FULL GAY!" They were also telling Bendis the Iceman fans in the CBR Iceman Appreciation Thread hated him.
So I messaged Bendis and told him we did NOT hate him, that we had been enjoying his depiction of Young Iceman(what little he did with him). I told him how people were bragging about the things they were getting him to do and just asked him to "please do not change how you write the character because of it". Bendis didn't reply to me directly, but instead posted publicly that "I will not allow anyone to influce how I write a character". I shared with everyone in the Iceman Appreciation Thread what I thought was the good news.
Then Young Jean reads Iceman's mind and tells him that he is gay. He says mabe he is bisexual , they say everyone is. Then she informs him that no, he is "FULL GAY!".
Sigh... So all that wasn't just bad writing on the part of Bendis, it came direly from the trolls at CBR.
Second, fiction is full-to-bursting with straight characters that a large group of fans see as gay/bi/something-other-than-straight. Sometimes it is wish-fulfillment, sometimes it is simply perception. I've been guilty of the latter myself. Perception is a funny thing. I remember when Northstar came out, I felt it was a dodge to avoid the fact he had incestuous feelings for his sister. I didn't want him to have those feelings, it was simply how I saw their relationship...
Bobby Drake, Peter Parker, Johnny Storm, Steve Rogers... all have LARGE segments of fans who have seen them as either bi or outright gay for decades. Same with Dick Grayson and many others at DC. And when writers/artists/editors learn of that, many of them add stuff as jokes and fan service purely for fun, that instead gets taken as proof of something or at least 'ambiguousness', and shapes more opinions in that direction.
I got back into the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles few years back because of the cartoon airing at the time and prior to checking out some of the fan-groups I figured there was probably a contiget of fans seeing Mikey as gay, because he's a joker and those characters seem to ALWAYS get that, and also the whole recurring 'Leatherhead' bit. What surprised me was all the people insisting RAPH was gay because as one poster pput it, "He has all the qualities of a woman while being entirely disdainful of women." They had a thread so full of 'proof' it would put the old "Iceman/Steve Rogers" is gay threads at CBR to shame.
Then the show gave Raph a girlfriend and all they could talk about was how betrayed they had been by the show's creators because he was so 'obviously gay'.
Perception. The thing with Iceman is that regardless of anyone's perception, he was created as straight and written as straight for over a half-century of stories. He WAS straight. You will find misquotes by Scott Lobdell, Mike Carey and Marjorie Liu scattered around the internet as 'proof' of it being otherwise, but as I said, they are misquotes. They have all actually said the opposite. The misquotes started with a few people doing it deliberately(I watched some of that happen at CBR) and after a bit people are just repeating what they heard and believing it to be true. The perceptions of a small percentage of fans, vocal though they may be, shouldn't change the reality of who a character actually is. You do that and you not only have chaos, you undermine the ability to perceive the fictional reality as in some way real. Fans stop buying into it. The change to Iceman was a 'jump the shark' moment to a lot of fans, they either now read around his... unreality... or they don't read stuff with him at all.
Third, I am in favor of social justice, and I can't stand so-called 'Social Justice Warriors'. To me someone in favor of social justice is much like a mainstream average christian and an 'SJW' is more like a member of the Westboro Baptist Church. They both take something that should be good and positive and twist it to make it unpalatable to outright toxic.
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Three things...
First, I was on CBR prior to the outing of Young Iceman. You had a contingent of 'Gayers' there who kept running back-and-forth between CBR and Bendis's Tumblr page trying to get Bendis to make Young Iceman gay. They would pop in to the Iceman Appreciation Thread there and taunt the Iceman fans, bragging about what they were getting Bendis to do to Young Iceman. After they took credit for the whole 'Disney Princess' bit, I took a look at Bendis's Tumblr and what they were posting there. "Have Jean or the Professor read Iceman's mind and tell him he is gay!" "Make him bisexual, they say everyone is!" "Yes, but only as a step to making him FULL GAY!" They were also telling Bendis the Iceman fans in the CBR Iceman Appreciation Thread hated him.
So I messaged Bendis and told him we did NOT hate him, that we had been enjoying his depiction of Young Iceman(what little he did with him). I told him how people were bragging about the things they were getting him to do and just asked him to "please do not change how you write the character because of it". Bendis didn't reply to me directly, but instead posted publicly that "I will not allow anyone to influce how I write a character". I shared with everyone in the Iceman Appreciation Thread what I thought was the good news.
Then Young Jean reads Iceman's mind and tells him that he is gay. He says mabe he is bisexual , they say everyone is. Then she informs him that no, he is "FULL GAY!".
Sigh... So all that wasn't just bad writing on the part of Bendis, it came direly from the trolls at CBR.
Second, fiction is full-to-bursting with straight characters that a large group of fans see as gay/bi/something-other-than-straight. Sometimes it is wish-fulfillment, sometimes it is simply perception. I've been guilty of the latter myself. Perception is a funny thing. I remember when Northstar came out, I felt it was a dodge to avoid the fact he had incestuous feelings for his sister. I didn't want him to have those feelings, it was simply how I saw their relationship...
Bobby Drake, Peter Parker, Johnny Storm, Steve Rogers... all have LARGE segments of fans who have seen them as either bi or outright gay for decades. Same with Dick Grayson and many others at DC. And when writers/artists/editors learn of that, many of them add stuff as jokes and fan service purely for fun, that instead gets taken as proof of something or at least 'ambiguousness', and shapes more opinions in that direction.
I got back into the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles few years back because of the cartoon airing at the time and prior to checking out some of the fan-groups I figured there was probably a contiget of fans seeing Mikey as gay, because he's a joker and those characters seem to ALWAYS get that, and also the whole recurring 'Leatherhead' bit. What surprised me was all the people insisting RAPH was gay because as one poster pput it, "He has all the qualities of a woman while being entirely disdainful of women." They had a thread so full of 'proof' it would put the old "Iceman/Steve Rogers" is gay threads at CBR to shame.
Then the show gave Raph a girlfriend and all they could talk about was how betrayed they had been by the show's creators because he was so 'obviously gay'.
Perception. The thing with Iceman is that regardless of anyone's perception, he was created as straight and written as straight for over a half-century of stories. He WAS straight. You will find misquotes by Scott Lobdell, Mike Carey and Marjorie Liu scattered around the internet as 'proof' of it being otherwise, but as I said, they are misquotes. They have all actually said the opposite. The misquotes started with a few people doing it deliberately(I watched some of that happen at CBR) and after a bit people are just repeating what they heard and believing it to be true. The perceptions of a small percentage of fans, vocal though they may be, shouldn't change the reality of who a character actually is. You do that and you not only have chaos, you undermine the ability to perceive the fictional reality as in some way real. Fans stop buying into it. The change to Iceman was a 'jump the shark' moment to a lot of fans, they either now read around his... unreality... or they don't read stuff with him at all.
Third, I am in favor of social justice, and I can't stand so-called 'Social Justice Warriors'. To me someone in favor of social justice is much like a mainstream average christian and an 'SJW' is more like a member of the Westboro Baptist Church. They both take something that should be good and positive and twist it to make it unpalatable to outright toxic.
See, I always thought they strongly hinted Iceman could be gay (or bi)...and a like you say, that was perception. In thinking more about it, I mostly drew my conclusion from the mid-late 90's, when there were subtle hints such as someone (I forget who, in X-Men 19 I think it was) mocking Iceman's failed "relationship" with Opal, and it sort of reading like he can't seem to succeed with ANY woman. But mostly it was the road trip Bobby took with Rogue to confront his (presented as bigoted) dad.
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-S2ApSrXZRZM/XEiTAqMkQpI/AAAAAAAAkG0/7-jmE-4jZb4zf8tUVTjNv4IzZ1By3vXxQCEwYBhgL/s1600/Uncanny%2BX-Men%2B%2523319%2B-%2BTopal.jpg)
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-exfqSItSsvw/XEiS-uCBnDI/AAAAAAAAkGw/H-U4sEhYSB4_mJ96ZaDfaXd-WZNWWaJbwCEwYBhgL/s1600/Uncanny%2BX-Men%2B%2523319%2B-%2BBigot.jpg)
(https://i0.wp.com/www.xavierfiles.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/icemangay22.jpg)
Now, it's pretty much implied Bobby's dad is anti-mutant, but, given X-men have always been an allegory for being misunderstood, outcast, closeted, awkward, puberty, etc etc, it's easy to read into it that Bobby was "closeted" and his father knew/suspected and resented him for it, and Bobby had issues with that. This conversation likely reads like many coming out gay young men must have had with conservative father's in the 90's.
Now, worth mentioning, a few issues later, Graydon Creed has Bobby's father nearly killed to get to Bobby (he was running for office, and the X-Men were infiltrating him, and Bobby was ousted, but his father refused to betray his son).
(https://psychodadcomics.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/9-iceman-storm.jpg)
(https://psychodadcomics.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/10-iceman.jpg?w=616)
Again, my takeaway from that is, it as meant to represent gay men who felt their fathers hated them for being gay, and coming to grips with their fathers still ultimately loved them, but just resented their lifestyle. Adding to this was his hospital ridden father's conversation with our favorite Cajun, where (again, consistent with 90's "it's a choice" mentality) Mr.Drake asks Gambit why he choses to be (an out and about) mutant as, he's a handsome, regular LOOKING guy who could pass as normal (non mutant, and, therefore, allegorically, straight).
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/i6Cvi9F9K7P3Mog7MTqb4zk_KDcf5y2xuQ8uCuZz71KRNqtbwedEPXB_nD6W9ZFFQ22_v2zLuqwT=s1600)
(complete with some TRUE social justice...a natural, humble realization of injustice)
(https://psychodadcomics.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/11-gambit.jpg)
To me, while the story was about Bobby's tumultuous relationship with his father, and in story, overing being a mutant, it was pretty clear they were alluding to closeted homosexuality. And, it IS as you say, perception, but it's all about subtext.
(https://i0.wp.com/www.tor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/UXM319-3.jpg?fit=640%2C%209999&crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C985px)
and by subtext I also mean visually....like, as an artist, myself, I have to say, things are...diliberately done. Such as, uhm...well, I'll let the pic speak for itself.
(https://i0.wp.com/www.tor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/UXM319-1.jpg?fit=640%2C%209999&crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C985px)
While this story wasn't Iceman coming out as gay, it easily could have been. And it would have ben far better handled, more justified and earned, than the crap Bendis presented. And Rogue, being his support, was far more caring, and a humble friend, than an arrogant Jean abusing her powers and feeling self righteously entitled into putting him.
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See, I always thought they strongly hinted Iceman could be gay (or bi)...and a like you say, that was perception. In thinking more about it, I mostly drew my conclusion from the mid-late 90's, when there were subtle hints such as someone (I forget who, in X-Men 19 I think it was) mocking Iceman's failed "relationship" with Opal, and it sort of reading like he can't seem to succeed with ANY woman. But mostly it was the road trip Bobby took with Rogue to confront his (presented as bigoted) dad.
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-S2ApSrXZRZM/XEiTAqMkQpI/AAAAAAAAkG0/7-jmE-4jZb4zf8tUVTjNv4IzZ1By3vXxQCEwYBhgL/s1600/Uncanny%2BX-Men%2B%2523319%2B-%2BTopal.jpg)
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-exfqSItSsvw/XEiS-uCBnDI/AAAAAAAAkGw/H-U4sEhYSB4_mJ96ZaDfaXd-WZNWWaJbwCEwYBhgL/s1600/Uncanny%2BX-Men%2B%2523319%2B-%2BBigot.jpg)
(https://i0.wp.com/www.xavierfiles.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/icemangay22.jpg)
Now, it's pretty much implied Bobby's dad is anti-mutant, but, given X-men have always been an allegory for being misunderstood, outcast, closeted, awkward, puberty, etc etc, it's easy to read into it that Bobby was "closeted" and his father knew/suspected and resented him for it, and Bobby had issues with that. This conversation likely reads like many coming out gay young men must have had with conservative father's in the 90's.
Now, worth mentioning, a few issues later, Graydon Creed has Bobby's father nearly killed to get to Bobby (he was running for office, and the X-Men were infiltrating him, and Bobby was ousted, but his father refused to betray his son).
(https://psychodadcomics.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/9-iceman-storm.jpg)
(https://psychodadcomics.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/10-iceman.jpg?w=616)
Again, my takeaway from that is, it as meant to represent gay men who felt their fathers hated them for being gay, and coming to grips with their fathers still ultimately loved them, but just resented their lifestyle. Adding to this was his hospital ridden father's conversation with our favorite Cajun, where (again, consistent with 90's "it's a choice" mentality) Mr.Drake asks Gambit why he choses to be (an out and about) mutant as, he's a handsome, regular LOOKING guy who could pass as normal (non mutant, and, therefore, allegorically, straight).
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/i6Cvi9F9K7P3Mog7MTqb4zk_KDcf5y2xuQ8uCuZz71KRNqtbwedEPXB_nD6W9ZFFQ22_v2zLuqwT=s1600)
(complete with some TRUE social justice...a natural, humble realization of injustice)
(https://psychodadcomics.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/11-gambit.jpg)
To me, while the story was about Bobby's tumultuous relationship with his father, and in story, overing being a mutant, it was pretty clear they were alluding to closeted homosexuality. And, it IS as you say, perception, but it's all about subtext.
(https://i0.wp.com/www.tor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/UXM319-3.jpg?fit=640%2C%209999&crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C985px)
and by subtext I also mean visually....like, as an artist, myself, I have to say, things are...diliberately done. Such as, uhm...well, I'll let the pic speak for itself.
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While this story wasn't Iceman coming out as gay, it easily could have been. And it would have ben far better handled, more justified and earned, than the crap Bendis presented. And Rogue, being his support, was far more caring, and a humble friend, than an arrogant Jean abusing her powers and feeling self righteously entitled into putting him.
I love those comics. :)
You are on the money with all that. Scott Lobdell has said that he used the story of a gay man bringing his gay friend home to meet his parents as the inspiration for that story. It was something he often did, taking things that applied to other 'real-world' minorities and translating them to mutants to add more relevance to the 'mutant metaphor'. Our world's 'Queer Nation' inspired 'Gene Nation' in the comics, for example. Some posters at CBR have spent over two decades pushing that because of the inspiration for the story, that Scott was trying/planning to out Bobby as gay. Totally ignoring that if the inspiration meant anything about the the character's actual sexuality, that would mean Rogue was gay, too.
Fabian Nicieza made the comment back in the 90's that the X-Office kept getting letters from some vocal fans who thought Iceman was gay, or wanted Marvel to 'make him gay' and both he and Scott Lobdell thought it was funny so they started putting jokes into the books to play to that. I actually posted a link on the old pre-reboot CBR where Scott was fielding questions at a fan event and a fan asked him if the "jokes meant anything". Scott replied, "no, Iceman's straight, me and Fabian were just having a little fun with the fact some fans think he is not." That took the air out of the 'gayers' sails there for a day-or-two before they just ignored it and kept on.
After Uncanny X-Men #600 came out, while Scott Lobdell was writing the Titans at DC, someone tweeted at him asking him to make one of the straight Titans gay. I don't know which one because they later deleted the tweet, but Scott's response was still there. "No, because that would be like me making Bunker(who is gay and Latino) straight and white. I'm not Bendis."
Fun thing, that scene with Gambit and Bobby's dad came out around the time some fans were speculating that Bobby and Remy were actually half-brothers via Bobby's dad(this was after they speculated that Rogue was Gambit's sister but before they were specualting Bobby and Rogue were going to get married in Vegas). I remember it was interesting to read that scene with that in mind.
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Lol, so there was rampant fan speculation back then too? This is completely off topic, but it always bugged me that iceman’s hair would change from blond to brown, all the time!
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I see where you're coming from, Toadman, and agree that that storyline could've been a coming out story (much better than the one Bobby actually had). But I think sometimes people can read way too much between the lines. If Asmus had been successful in making Gambit bisexual, there would have been a flood of "evidence" of his being bi, distortions and new interpretations of past scenes.
Fun thing, that scene with Gambit and Bobby's dad came out around the time some fans were speculating that Bobby and Remy were actually half-brothers via Bobby's dad(this was after they speculated that Rogue was Gambit's sister but before they were specualting Bobby and Rogue were going to get married in Vegas). I remember it was interesting to read that scene with that in mind.
Really? Where do people get these ridiculous ideas from?
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I see where you're coming from, Toadman, and agree that that storyline could've been a coming out story (much better than the one Bobby actually had). But I think sometimes people can read way too much between the lines. If Asmus had been successful in making Gambit bisexual, there would have been a flood of "evidence" of his being bi, distortions and new interpretations of past scenes.
Really? Where do people get these ridiculous ideas from?
Oh God, with the exception of Daken, dare I even ask what??
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Everything. Every detail would be analized and reinterpreted to fit the new status quo. Actually, I remember people bringing up Daken, his living on the streets as a kid, kissing Courier (in a woman's body), persuing a relationship with Rogue because she was untouchable as subtext when we learned about Asmus failed attempt at making Gambit bi. I'm just glad it didn't happen.
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Everything. Every detail would be analized and reinterpreted to fit the new status quo. Actually, I remember people bringing up Daken, his living on the streets as a kid, kissing Courier (in a woman's body), persuing a relationship with Rogue because she was untouchable as subtext when we learned about Asmus failed attempt at making Gambit bi. I'm just glad it didn't happen.
Yep. After Young Iceman came out director Brian Singer was asked if the movie version of Iceman would, too. He replied, "No, I hope people understand that it is different universes. But there is something almost... sub-textual... about him seeking a relationship with a woman he could not touch."
They would have a field-day with that for Gambit.
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Everything. Every detail would be analized and reinterpreted to fit the new status quo. Actually, I remember people bringing up Daken, his living on the streets as a kid, kissing Courier (in a woman's body), persuing a relationship with Rogue because she was untouchable as subtext when we learned about Asmus failed attempt at making Gambit bi. I'm just glad it didn't happen.
Jesus, you're right. I always took Gambit's initial interest in Rogue as because she was "unobtainable", and Gambit was the bad boy that loved a challenge. Her being untouchable made her wanna touch him more. Meanwhile, she was SO enamored with the tall, dark, handsome mysterious ladies man who could have ANYONE being SO interested in her, who everyone else ignored.
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Yeah, that's why their dynamic worked well in the beginning.
Yep. After Young Iceman came out director Brian Singer was asked if the movie version of Iceman would, too. He replied, "No, I hope people understand that it is different universes. But there is something almost... sub-textual... about him seeking a relationship with a woman he could not touch."
They would have a field-day with that for Gambit.
We dodged a bullet there.
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Yep. After Young Iceman came out director Brian Singer was asked if the movie version of Iceman would, too. He replied, "No, I hope people understand that it is different universes. But there is something almost... sub-textual... about him seeking a relationship with a woman he could not touch."
They would have a field-day with that for Gambit.
I just don't get WHY so many people want to read gay subtext into ESTABLISHED characters. What is the appeal??
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I just don't get WHY so many people want to read gay subtext into ESTABLISHED characters. What is the appeal??
Well we are often looking for elements of ourselv or our experience in what we are reading. I know that I myself often get invested in certain relationships; romantic, friendship, sibling, parents. Probably due to the experiences I myself have.
So while looking for things to identify they pick up on these things. Subtexts that are there by intention or not.
The problem for me is that it's so damn ambigious and wide. If even a character like Gambit who was concieved as a ladies man is being interuptated and also planned as Bi then there are no established limits. Personally I would have been fine with Gambit as Bi simply because it fits the idea that he seduces people for benefits. The problem then becomes how much space does it take up in his stories. For me it's not a 50/50 more like a 20/80. Witch is just a subject that I could discuss with people at lenght. Ripe for disagreements.
So I see it more as a tool of convienience. Not something to build a future relationship on. Also because I prefer a good written Romy relationship. A endangered creature if there is one in current comics.
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Well we are often looking for elements of ourselv or our experience in what we are reading. I know that I myself often get invested in certain relationships; romantic, friendship, sibling, parents. Probably due to the experiences I myself have.
So while looking for things to identify they pick up on these things. Subtexts that are there by intention or not.
The problem for me is that it's so damn ambigious and wide. If even a character like Gambit who was concieved as a ladies man is being interuptated and also planned as Bi then there are no established limits. Personally I would have been fine with Gambit as Bi simply because it fits the idea that he seduces people for benefits. The problem then becomes how much space does it take up in his stories. For me it's not a 50/50 more like a 20/80. Witch is just a subject that I could discuss with people at lenght. Ripe for disagreements.
So I see it more as a tool of convienience. Not something to build a future relationship on. Also because I prefer a good written Romy relationship. A endangered creature if there is one in current comics.
I mean I agree but, when I see elements of myself in a gay character, I don't think they should be turned straight or bi just to make them MORE relatable to me.
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Creating new characters gives you the freedom to do whatever you want with them (even if it is borderline ridiculous like the example in the other thread) but changing preexisting characters for the sake of it is what bothers me, especially without laying the groundwork like Asmus wanted to do. If his idea had passed we were to find out Gambit had had a relationship with a guy. Just like that. I’m against the idea (luckily it’s all that is) of Gambit being bi because it would do him a disservice at this point, it wouldn’t open to new more interesting stories, it would redefine his character in a way he was never intended to be, it'd swallow his other traits.
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I mean I agree but, when I see elements of myself in a gay character, I don't think they should be turned straight or bi just to make them MORE relatable to me.
Oh I agree. I think it was more due to lack of characters stated officially as gay. In general I'm against changing characters. I think it creates more problems then it solves.
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Creating new characters gives you the freedom to do whatever you want with them (even if it is borderline ridiculous like the example in the other thread) but changing preexisting characters for the sake of it is what bothers me, especially without laying the groundwork like Asmus wanted to do. If his idea had passed we were to find out Gambit had had a relationship with a guy. Just like that. I’m against the idea (luckily it’s all that is) of Gambit being bi because it would do him a disservice at this point, it wouldn’t open to new more interesting stories, it would redefine his character in a way he was never intended to be, it'd swallow his other traits.
I see what you did there.
But, I wholeheartedly agree. Iceman is no longer Iceman, he's generic gay character (who happens to be Iceman).
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What does it look like I did? lol
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I think modern X-Men is reaching a tipping point in terms of their featured characters and sexuality. It's just not realistic for every book to be completely "inclusive". It's not an issue of representation but improbability. And that's not just in terms of sexuality but race, creed etc. Everything doesn't have to be the United Nations of "Like me". I survived for years with Storm and Bishop being the only "black" characters in the entirety of X-Men (Bishop is Aborigines). It doesn't kill you.
Same thing goes for these morlock types that every X-Men artist seems to populate the background with. At some point someone has to realize that there's no chance that all these people are compatible enough to reproduce. Eventually you end up with a bunch of Rogue-like situations where Frog-Boy and Mist Woman aren't biologically or logically able to romantically interact, much less reproduce.
Seriously, in the past 20 years how many characters have "come out of the closet" or just been insinuated to be one thing or another? I mean main characters. Psylocke, Iceman, Shatterstar, Rictor, Rachel, Kitty, Rogue, and the latest Cyclops and Wolverine. Probably missing something. It's just getting a bit much. That's like half the main cast. And let's be truthful, in the pantheon of X-Men, there are only 12 that really matter, despite what editors and writers try to force down our collective throats.