GambitGuild

Gambit => Gambit => Topic started by: DonPriceTag on July 11, 2020, 09:41:46 PM

Title: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on July 11, 2020, 09:41:46 PM
Sadly, at the moment Gambit is stuck on Excalibur. It's not the book with the best premise or the most knowledgeable X-Men writer in the world. To be honest, it has next to nothing to do with Gambit's character - outside of the fact that it's based around magic and Gambit is a Harry Potter fan, something I'm sure Tini Howard has no idea about.

The best I could figure why he's there is because he's married to Rogue. I don't think that's a good idea or even makes sense. Being married doesn't mean you have to be with each other all the time. Being an X-Man is very similar to having a job. In my experience, when two employees are involved, especially married, it's in everyone's best interest to separate them professionally. It helps avoid conflicts, moreso in case one is a higher authority than the other.

Cyclops and Jean were together and married for years without ever being in the same book. During the 90s Jean spent most of her time in Uncanny while Cyclops led the blue team in "X-Men". It wasn't until the later parts of the decade were they on the same roster before hia death, and then her death in early 00s.

Of course, being married Gambit and Rogue would have to cross paths. With both alive and operating out of the same base (Krakoa) it would only make sense for them to occasionally cameo together in each other's books.

Gambit's involvement with magic and the occult only went as far his various X-Men adventures, the voodoo he'd have to encounter being from Marvel's NOLA, and his trip to Otherworld as a "favor" to Pete Wisdom. Gambit has much more in common with just about every other book currently in the X-Men catalog.

Fallen Angels- though unceremoniously cancelled by Marvel, was a book starring Kwannon, Kid Cable and X-23 (it had others by time the book ended). It had  the three running off-the-book ops, personal to Kwannon, with some direction from Magneto and Mr Sinister (this era's best iteration of him I might add). Gambit's inclusion here would have made sense.


Kwannon has no footing in the world, X23 has no connections and Kid Cable is still basically a stranger. Gambit's an international wonder with deep connections in the underworld thanks to his past life and present position as the King of Thieves. It would have been one of the most organic of fits. Would have helped give the book some star power too.

New Mutants- no real connection there - at all. Past that I would have loved to see him aboard the Star Jammer - but again, no use or connection here


X-Men - X-Men is mostly an anthology series with a revolving cast and story. You could only really expect a one and done story here

X-Force- this is just as much a no-brainer as any. X-Force is a black ops team created to covertly gather information and quietly eliminate threats. Gambit may not be up for killing people all the time, but if Beast and Jean are on this team - Gambit should be a shoe in. Period.


Unlike everyone else, Gambit has his own supply line and information network that's unavailable to his teammates. He'd be invaluable in information gathering and keeping tabs on people of interest abroad. Possiby even having people brought in or gaining access to them without involving Krakoa at all, again thanks to his position in the International Thieves Guild.


Marauders - For @&#_ sake they are a team of smugglers. They're normal story revolves around doing illegal activity and being places where they aren't supposed to be. How the ##&# did Gambit not end up here? Of course it comes back to his connections with the Thieves Guild. He Lord's over the exchange of stolen and black market goods. It'd be idiotic to think that his organization wouldn't be chief among those dealing Krakoa goods.

At the very least he should be making cameo appearances in this book from time to time.

X-Factor - a new book written by Leah Williams is what it's been for a long while - a quasi-procedural mystery/investigations title. Probably less Gambits speed than X-Force, Fallen Angels, and Marauders - yet it still makes more sense or his usage than Excalibur. This group will be looking into disappearance of mutants. Gambits information gathering apparatus would be useful here, if not completely O.P. to the point of being broken.


The rest of the books are solos; Wolverine, Cable, and Juggernaut - there's Children of the Atom but unless it's truly an otherworld story about the Chimera - I'm ignoring that in hopes it disappears.


If you could place Gambit on any other of the above titles, what would it have been? Give two options, and why.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on July 11, 2020, 10:32:14 PM
For me, not knowing what the fate or quality of Fallen Angels would have been it would have been there and Marauders. I think Gambit would have fit in best with Kitty's crew to be honest. Although, FA would have given us more interaction with Mr Sinister and that book did supply us with best version of Me Sinister that we've seen yet in Dawn of X.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on July 12, 2020, 04:35:26 AM
Gambit is popular so they needed to add him to any book. Hickman has 0 plans for him so they added him to Excalibur to boost sales and so he can be just there.


X-Force ia the only good written team book. All others are average books at best. Gambit on grey line again, badass and part of X-Force team is exactly waht I wanted.


He could be on Marauders but not with Duggan as writer.


So if I would be able to choose second book it would be a supporting and good written character for Wolverine solo. Yeah, not the best option but better then other DOX books. Percy is a good writer.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: anya on July 12, 2020, 11:25:54 AM
Gambit and rogue are married, but there no reason for rogue to be in Excalibur either. She has even less to do with magic than him. Apocalypse and betsy are the only ones ‘needed’ for the story, everyone else is padding out the cast. Like purp said, Gambit (and rogue) were added for sales on the apocalypse/betsy solo. And at the beginning it worked, Excalibur was one of the better selling side titles. But it’s fallen off because ten issues in everyone see’s it’s about apocalypse (illogically) flexing on everyone while betsy runs around confused (but with a sword!) and not much plot holding everything together.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on July 13, 2020, 10:34:00 AM
It's a sad state of the affairs of the industry. It reads like a very bad fan fiction you'd find on some obscure website back in the early 2000's. The art is....mediocre, the author terrible and ignorant of the characters, and the story is stupid. Like I say, it's bad fan fiction put to print with an official stamp on it.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on July 13, 2020, 10:50:21 AM
...so, alternatives to Excalibur?
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on July 13, 2020, 11:03:40 AM
...so, alternatives to Excalibur?


A brand new book ;)
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on July 13, 2020, 12:42:21 PM
Or older ones. TBH I'd rather reread early 90's books than anything made today.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: wantutosigh on July 13, 2020, 08:16:50 PM
If I had to pick, I guess Marauders? Just because it seems to make the most sense. But honestly I'm just not interested in anything they're doing in the comics right now. And with how they're going right now I really don't have any hope for Gambit being portrayed well at this point. It seems like very few characters in general are being portrayed all that well. And I hate to say it, but Gambit being a straight white male seems like it will mostly relegate him to the background of whoever is writing team books, subservient to whoever the female leader is or his wife. That just seems the way of the comics at this point. If he had a solo then that would be another story. But I don't expect much from him in any of these team books. Unless a new writer came in who loves Gambit. But even then I would probably expect them to focus on other characters they desperately want to push.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on July 14, 2020, 09:31:15 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ec45btCXoAEu2Xq?format=png&name=4096x4096)
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on July 14, 2020, 11:20:11 AM
If I had to pick, I guess Marauders? Just because it seems to make the most sense. But honestly I'm just not interested in anything they're doing in the comics right now. And with how they're going right now I really don't have any hope for Gambit being portrayed well at this point. It seems like very few characters in general are being portrayed all that well. And I hate to say it, but Gambit being a straight white male seems like it will mostly relegate him to the background of whoever is writing team books, subservient to whoever the female leader is or his wife. That just seems the way of the comics at this point. If he had a solo then that would be another story. But I don't expect much from him in any of these team books. Unless a new writer came in who loves Gambit. But even then I would probably expect them to focus on other characters they desperately want to push.


Nailed it.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Nekobaghira on July 16, 2020, 12:13:51 PM
I'm so done with writers and agendas with their writing. What happened to just telling a tale that didn't have anything more than a creative story.

I seriously don't see myself buying another comic book until Gambit gets a solo. Which won't be happening anytime soon.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on July 16, 2020, 05:06:03 PM
I'm so done with writers and agendas with their writing. What happened to just telling a tale that didn't have anything more than a creative story.

I seriously don't see myself buying another comic book until Gambit gets a solo. Which won't be happening anytime soon.


I'm right there with you, but with everything....all television, movies, music, literature...I'm so sick of agendas and politics and s*** being shoved down my throat at every opportunity. I went to watch Major League on AMC the other day, and it was preceded by a disclaimer lamenting the name of the Cleveland Indians, saying the movie is old and implying from a "bad time" and hoping we can do better and change. I was disgusted. I just wanted to unwind watching a COMEDY.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Nekobaghira on July 16, 2020, 06:32:20 PM

I'm right there with you, but with everything....all television, movies, music, literature...I'm so sick of agendas and politics and s*** being shoved down my throat at every opportunity. I went to watch Major League on AMC the other day, and it was preceded by a disclaimer lamenting the name of the Cleveland Indians, saying the movie is old and implying from a "bad time" and hoping we can do better and change. I was disgusted. I just wanted to unwind watching a COMEDY.

Oh, I know. Blazing Saddles is really non-pc but still a very funny film. I'm waiting for the day where we'll never see that film again ever. edit: It would be a shame, its a really funny film - Mel Brooks knows how to make fun of life. :)

I agree, lets just take a breather and try to entertain people, we certainly need it considering the current climate.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: wantutosigh on July 16, 2020, 07:02:19 PM
The current state of entertainment is sad right now. I really worry about all of it going forward. It doesn't seem like it's going to get any better for a while. It's also why I worry about a Disney Gambit show/movie. What are they going to do to him so that he's not "problematic"?


Someone just put out one of their articles that's "5 reasons Rogue and Gambit are the best Marvel couple and 5 reasons their terrible". One of the numbers is about how Gambit is not a good guy and how the way he flirted is not "okay" today and wasn't "okay " back then either. I'm constantly seeing this on these articles when they talk about Gambit. How his flirtatiousness makes him a "creep" or it's "not okay" etc. It makes me nervous about when they do give him a show or movie, how are they going to portray him.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on July 17, 2020, 09:24:40 AM
To many third/fourth wave feminists (I put third/fourth because I've ben chastised for getting it wrong online, in both directions, so I'm covering my ass), any sexual advancement by a male is "toxic masculinity". So, I'm not surprised Gambit's 1992-1995 flirting is now considered "problematic".  How dare he be the one who pursues? When she initially rejected his advancements he should have respected her opinions and backed off! Being suggestive, lewd, or aggressive is RAAAAAAAPE!
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: wantutosigh on July 17, 2020, 02:44:23 PM
It's crazy too because one thing they should take note of is the fact that of all the X-Men, Gambit has one of the biggest female followings in the fandom. Outside of feminists and virtue signalers on twitter and such, normal people are fine with it and female fans enjoy his style.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on July 17, 2020, 05:58:17 PM
It's crazy too because one thing they should take note of is the fact that of all the X-Men, Gambit has one of the biggest female followings in the fandom. Outside of feminists and virtue signalers on twitter and such, normal people are fine with it and female fans enjoy his style.


EXACTLY!!!! I'd say Gambit's got more female fans than male fans, and that's partially responsible for his extreme (and continued) popularity, and part of that appeal was he was the handsome, sexy, ladies man, dashing, flirty scoundrel. He was a fantasy character. His last name is The beautiful ffs.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: RomeoSvengali on July 17, 2020, 11:40:28 PM
I've seen this compliant several times, that Gambit flirts (oh how dare he) even when he's with Rogue, but as always, they never go into details on this, they can't list a single title, vol. or issue number, no quotes or show any images proving any of it. Asking for details and you'll either get none or just barely a handful of pitiful examples with no context. It's just all this vague talk or their lying there asses off, many of these websites are written by people (mostly males) who've never had a girlfriend or even been out on a date in there life, inadequate self-conscious losers, but they want to act like experts on such things. If one actually takes the time to read the comics, you'll see that Gambit is one of the best things to ever happen to Rogue. Nobody really cares for CBR anymore, they only make those kinds of articles for clicks, don't give them any.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: anya on July 18, 2020, 11:58:44 AM
Yeah, some of those articles look for things to be upset about. Wolverine was even more ‘problemic’ with Jean and that was never an obstacle for the movies, etc...


So back on the original topic, of another book. ‘On paper’ Mauraders would be the best. But in reality, it’s written by Dugan (who is not  a fan) and although it’s supposed to be about the smuggling, etc, that’s merely a thin backdrop for a hellfire club book. Something that could still work, but again Dugan is writing, so won’t happen.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Varia on July 18, 2020, 01:04:46 PM
Quote from: wantutosigh link=topic=5289. msg78109#msg78109 date=1594940539

Someone just put out one of their articles that's "5 reasons Rogue and Gambit are the best Marvel couple and 5 reasons their terrible".  One of the numbers is about how Gambit is not a good guy and how the way he flirted is not "okay" today and wasn't "okay " back then either. 


Was that the same list that said they "almost never like each other" (  ::)  ) or was that a different one?


I can't speak for how everyone feels towards Gambit.  Personally, as a self-identifying Feminist and someone whose been through a fair share of harassment, Gambit has never bothered me even at his most flirtatious (yes, even when he was implied to have pinched Rogue's @$$).  Not even in a "Gee, looking back that was SO messed up!" way.  If anything, I always had a sense that I'd be safer with him than a lot of other people.  The reasons for this are complicated, personal, and difficult to put into words so I'm not even going to try here.


However, I think it has something to do at least partially, with the fact that his deep respect and admiration for women, whether romantic or not, was never in doubt.  He never saw them as just sexual conquests or pieces of meat, but recognized them as individuals, even when an attraction was there.  He seemed to have an innate understanding of how far was far enough.  People are welcome to feel about this how they want, of course.  It just added to why I liked him.  Gambit loves women, plain and simple.  In a sexual way or not. It wasn't a feeling I got from every guy in the media (heck, even in the X-Men themselves) even at their most "respectful".  Come to think of it, he actually felt way ahead of the times in some ways.

Ugh, I said I wasn't going to try to explain it, yet here I am.


Bottom Line: Not all of my childhood crushes have aged well.  But, Gambit? He's a keeper.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Varia on July 18, 2020, 02:07:08 PM
*Cough* As to the actual topic of this thread, I don't really have any more input than what's already been said.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Meliorist on July 18, 2020, 05:04:54 PM
I haven't bothered to read any of the new books besides Excalibur and I've given up on that one, so my opinion is based on team line-up more than anything concrete.Fallen Angels and (new/newish) Hellions are the books that seem/ed the most interesting for Gambit to be involved in. Especially now with Hellions, he has ties to a lot of the roster with Psylocke, Sinister, Scalphunter, Nanny, and Orphanmaker. The interactions of all of them with Gambit could be fun and it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for Gambit to be able to be a foil for the others but the Sinister, Scalphunter, Gambit interactions seem the most entertaining.
That is just based on team line-up. I know nothing of the creative team or their views on Gambit or willingness to research.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: anya on July 20, 2020, 11:37:52 AM
From what I heard, hellions is supposed to a a sort of rehab/therapy team for mutants whose powers make them act badly and the team is supposed to be an outlet. Though I don’t think any of those characters ever actually had that problems, lol,  I think some have been retconned.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Meliorist on July 20, 2020, 03:09:26 PM
Rehab as lead by Sinister? Ah... nevermind...
I want another Gambit and the X-Ternals then
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: cajunpirate on July 20, 2020, 03:12:35 PM
I don't thin X of Swords is going to win over any new fans, quite possibly the opposite. Still, I wouldn't mind just one panel where Gambit charges his sword, throws it at some huge bad guy, and...kaboom, bad guy pieces everywhere.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on July 20, 2020, 05:49:28 PM
I don't thin X of Swords is going to win over any new fans, quite possibly the opposite. Still, I wouldn't mind just one panel where Gambit charges his sword, throws it at some huge bad guy, and...kaboom, bad guy pieces everywhere.


I would buy book just for your panel.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on July 27, 2020, 09:45:39 AM
I haven't bothered to read any of the new books besides Excalibur and I've given up on that one, so my opinion is based on team line-up more than anything concrete.Fallen Angels and (new/newish) Hellions are the books that seem/ed the most interesting for Gambit to be involved in. Especially now with Hellions, he has ties to a lot of the roster with Psylocke, Sinister, Scalphunter, Nanny, and Orphanmaker. The interactions of all of them with Gambit could be fun and it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for Gambit to be able to be a foil for the others but the Sinister, Scalphunter, Gambit interactions seem the most entertaining.
That is just based on team line-up. I know nothing of the creative team or their views on Gambit or willingness to research.


I forgot about Hellions. He does have a lot of connections there. I was talking with a YouTuber and he said something along the lines that everyone is where they are for a reason. I think that's a cute and politically correct way to look at comics. That's not always true. I can cite several instances where characters were in books but served no real purpose outside of their introduction. Gambit hasnt served any real purpose while being on Excalibur which goes back to "he's only there because he's married to Rogue". If that's the case it's an infantile reason. Being married to someone doesnt mean you're constantly together. That's nigh been the case within X-Men books. Couples are rarely on the same time - which in reality is a good reason not to be. Your presence of your significant other can put others at risk because it skews someone's objectivity.


Like the mansion served in the past, Krakoa is homebase for everyone. All the teams do go out on adventures but always come home. Like a job. Worked for Scott and Jean for years. Could even help the books as they'd be able to guest star in each other's books that would certainly result in issue boosts. Gambit's usefulness is Excalibur is pretty invisible so far but he seems more accessible in just about every other title.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on July 27, 2020, 10:16:29 AM
I don`t agree. Excalibur is Apoc and Braddocks show. Others don`t matter. Both Gambit and Rogue have no reason to be there.


They were added to book just to add some star power to it. Gambit`s main plot is not that he married but that he don`t trust Apoc. This is probably  the only plot reason why he is there.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on July 27, 2020, 01:04:17 PM
I don`t agree. Excalibur is Apoc and Braddocks show. Others don`t matter. Both Gambit and Rogue have no reason to be there.


They were added to book just to add some star power to it. Gambit`s main plot is not that he married but that he don`t trust Apoc. This is probably  the only plot reason why he is there.


That's not a good reason either. No one should trust Apocalypse. What he put Gambit through in becoming a horseman wasnt exclusive to him. He transformed a dozen or so X-Men over the years. You can easily replace Gambit with any number of characters and there would be no difference.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: anya on July 27, 2020, 02:44:02 PM
That is true, but what purp said is also true. It’s really an Apocalypse (and betsy) solo and no one else is important or useful or necessary to the story. They could all be switched out for other characters (even Betsy.)
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: andresa on August 01, 2020, 02:28:22 PM
The current state of entertainment is sad right now. I really worry about all of it going forward. It doesn't seem like it's going to get any better for a while. It's also why I worry about a Disney Gambit show/movie. What are they going to do to him so that he's not "problematic"?

It worries me too. Only the rumors of a “Han Solo type” being sought out for the role give me hope.

I’ve never seen Gambit’s flirtatious ways as problematic. TBBT early seasons’ Howard was problematic. His character was played for laughs but came off as creepy and repulsive. Remember clown pants Gambit, described by the (progressive feminist) writer as skeevy, who tried giving out massages and was rejected?
That isn’t Gambit. Gambit is a suave, handsome guy who makes women swoon. He’s not misleading in his intentions. He would be a creep if he was rejected but isn’t, women find him devilishly charming and are all over him.


I've seen this compliant several times, that Gambit flirts (oh how dare he) even when he's with Rogue, but as always, they never go into details on this, they can't list a single title, vol. or issue number, no quotes or show any images proving any of it. Asking for details and you'll either get none or just barely a handful of pitiful examples with no context. It's just all this vague talk or their lying there asses off, many of these websites are written by people (mostly males) who've never had a girlfriend or even been out on a date in there life, inadequate self-conscious losers, but they want to act like experts on such things. If one actually takes the time to read the comics, you'll see that Gambit is one of the best things to ever happen to Rogue. Nobody really cares for CBR anymore, they only make those kinds of articles for clicks, don't give them any.

I’ve been rereading a lot of old X-Men comics (because I’m so not interest in anything coming out) and Gambit solos as well. Honestly Layman’s solo is worse than I remembered. Remy was called out on flirting while having a girlfriend (“that mutie-cutie with the streak in her hair”) by a supporting character. And this book is also responsible for that horrible Lili Penrose incident that led to the supposed sex tape, which is number one (and only) evidence that Gambit is a cheating scumbag, even though the content on the tape was never clarified. All in all, Gambit has never been written cheating on Rogue. The few instances I recall him having flings were when he and Rogue were on one of their hundreds breaks. Gambit is supposed to be a ladies’ man but has never been much of it. I mean, except for Rogue, he hasn’t had any significant love interest within the X-Men (maybe because he was paired up with Rogue really early and it stuck. I would’ve enjoyed him having a relationship with some other X-woman, for a change). Also he’s been married twice. Some scoundrel.

As to the thread question, it doesn’t matter in which book Gambit is, he won’t be back to being the character he was in the past. I don’t like the X-Men’s current state and haven’t for years, I’m tired of hoping against hope. Even if we got a new writer who loves and understands what makes Gambit work as a character, the inadequacy of editors and Marvel as a whole would harm a possible solo book. I don't think there are writers right now that would make a terrific job with the character in any of the current books. I think Gambit coming to the MCU will be a game-changer. For better or worse, the Gambit that debuts in the MCU will be the Gambit will be getting for a long time.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Varia on August 01, 2020, 07:54:31 PM
I’ve been rereading a lot of old X-Men comics (because I’m so not interest in anything coming out) and Gambit solos as well. Honestly Layman’s solo is worse than I remembered. Remy was called out on flirting while having a girlfriend (“that mutie-cutie with the streak in her hair”) by a supporting character. And this book is also responsible for that horrible Lili Penrose incident that led to the supposed sex tape, which is number one (and only) evidence that Gambit is a cheating scumbag, even though the content on the tape was never clarified. All in all, Gambit has never been written cheating on Rogue. The few instances I recall him having flings were when he and Rogue were on one of their hundreds breaks. Gambit is supposed to be a ladies’ man but has never been much of it. I mean, except for Rogue, he hasn’t had any significant love interest within the X-Men (maybe because he was paired up with Rogue really early and it stuck. I would’ve enjoyed him having a relationship with some other X-woman, for a change). Also he’s been married twice. Some scoundrel.


I agree with a lot of what you said.


The sex tape thing was an absolute mess for several reasons. First of all, it IS the only evidence we have of Gambit "cheating" on Rogue. Second of all, the entire incident felt as if it happened because of this perception that men are incapable of refusing sex when it's offered by a hot chick no matter what the circumstances or whether they actually like her or not ("I may be homo sapian superior, but I am still only human" or whatever the line was). Another instance I felt like the writers were the scumbags rather than Gambit, especially because it actually seems to be played as an unmitigated triumph that he succeeded in getting away with it and snowing Rogue???

I have my own thoughts about Rogue and Gambit's "Relationship rules" before she got control of her powers. I can't claim it's totally backed up in the comics but there were some moments, particularly in XXM, that signaled to me that things may not have been so black and white with them in the past and there might have been some discussion and "agreements" made.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: RomeoSvengali on August 02, 2020, 06:42:49 PM
We should make a comparison list with Gambit and others, when it comes to those who are a ladies' man, who have cheated and betrayed the team and see where Gambit ranks on that.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on August 03, 2020, 10:18:05 AM
Always viewed Gambit as a flirt, and a man that COULD pull any chick he wanted, but, didn't...as in he was very exclusive. Which makes him better than say, Tony Stark. s***, Wolverine's had more confirmed sexual partners than Gambit.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Varia on August 03, 2020, 12:52:49 PM
Always viewed Gambit as a flirt, and a man that COULD pull any chick he wanted, but, didn't...as in he was very exclusive. Which makes him better than say, Tony Stark. s***, Wolverine's had more confirmed sexual partners than Gambit.

Yep! He's comfortable with his libido; he controls it, it does not control him.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: andresa on August 04, 2020, 10:18:51 AM
The sex tape thing was an absolute mess for several reasons. First of all, it IS the only evidence we have of Gambit "cheating" on Rogue. Second of all, the entire incident felt as if it happened because of this perception that men are incapable of refusing sex when it's offered by a hot chick no matter what the circumstances or whether they actually like her or not ("I may be homo sapian superior, but I am still only human" or whatever the line was). Another instance I felt like the writers were the scumbags rather than Gambit, especially because it actually seems to be played as an unmitigated triumph that he succeeded in getting away with it and snowing Rogue???


I agree that it speaks volumes about the writers rather than the character. On the other hand, female writers like Lui and Thompson wrote Gambit as (too) nice and devoted.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on August 04, 2020, 02:27:43 PM

I agree that it speaks volumes about the writers rather than the character. On the other hand, female writers like Lui and Thompson wrote Gambit as (too) nice and devoted.


I agree with your comments spot on 100%. My only issue with this one is, I feel Liu had little choice. I agree, her Gambit is too nice...but, I think she rehabilitated his character quite a bit, she clearly understood him and his relationship with other characters, and she respected the character's fans. Yes, he was too soft. I felt this more a problem in her X title, than X23, where he was meant to be a mentor, but, she the main character...basically, he couldn't outshine her....bt still, her take on him was the best one (IMO) we've gotten in ...a decade, save maybe Amus.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Varia on August 04, 2020, 02:41:29 PM

I agree that it speaks volumes about the writers rather than the character. On the other hand, female writers like Lui and Thompson wrote Gambit as (too) nice and devoted.


It basically boils down to balancing the various traits that make the character humanly complex. Difficult, maybe, particularly if someone has more interest in other characters... but not impossible.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: andresa on August 04, 2020, 07:29:10 PM

I agree with your comments spot on 100%. My only issue with this one is, I feel Liu had little choice. I agree, her Gambit is too nice...but, I think she rehabilitated his character quite a bit, she clearly understood him and his relationship with other characters, and she respected the character's fans. Yes, he was too soft. I felt this more a problem in her X title, than X23, where he was meant to be a mentor, but, she the main character...basically, he couldn't outshine her....bt still, her take on him was the best one (IMO) we've gotten in ...a decade, save maybe Amus.


Agreed. I actually loved seeing Gambit in X-23, his big brother role, how the two of them bonded, how he called Wolverine out on not being there for Laura. Yeah, he was soft and sweet but he was also badass. Can’t say the same about Liu’s X-Men run, though. Gambit was barely there and his relationship with Cecilia Reyes was boring, they had nothing in common. Missed opportunity because Liu is a Gambit fan and she had a good grasp on him.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on August 05, 2020, 09:12:42 AM

Agreed. I actually loved seeing Gambit in X-23, his big brother role, how the two of them bonded, how he called Wolverine out on not being there for Laura. Yeah, he was soft and sweet but he was also badass. Can’t say the same about Liu’s X-Men run, though. Gambit was barely there and his relationship with Cecilia Reyes was boring, they had nothing in common. Missed opportunity because Liu is a Gambit fan and she had a good grasp on him.


Agreed. Him losing a fight to Mystique, him refusing to even fight Bobby because it was pointless, doing nothing of note...disappointing. I did enjoy his diner issue with Wolverine though. I actually used to tweet with Liu years ago, about Gambit or Game of Thrones...she was very polite.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on August 05, 2020, 11:01:51 AM

Agreed. Him losing a fight to Mystique, him refusing to even fight Bobby because it was pointless, doing nothing of note...disappointing. I did enjoy his diner issue with Wolverine though. I actually used to tweet with Liu years ago, about Gambit or Game of Thrones...she was very polite.


Mystique fight wan`t very good but he still had his swag. He knew that she arrived not to kill or attack and showed it.


Against Iceman with Dark Seed he has no options where everything is cowered with snow. He also had great moment when he told how he defeated his death persona and when noticed Iceman while Karma weren`t aware. I liked Liu`s Gambit in AXM. He was cool but only supportive. He was a leader of a reason.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Nekobaghira on August 05, 2020, 12:40:06 PM
What I find as amusing, is the sentiment that Liu was soft in regards to Gambit -
Love interest? And a few cool action sequences. -

Doesn't that sound familiar? *cough* Thompson *cough* Same thing.

Excalibur just amplifies the horrible treatment of Gambit. IMO

edit: the difference between Liu and Thompson, Gambit did get some story with Liu. He was looked up to, he mentored and was actually a useful member of the team. Not just support.

edit again: Liu would have used Rogue, but wasn't allowed. She wrote a romy story that was published in a collection of Xmen stories. She had a far better handle on the relationship than one would think.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: andresa on August 05, 2020, 01:23:44 PM
He also had great moment when he told how he defeated his death persona and when noticed Iceman while Karma weren`t aware. I liked Liu`s Gambit in AXM. He was cool but only supportive. He was a leader of a reason.


Do you know in which issue that happened? I don't remember that.


edit again: Liu would have used Rogue, but wasn't allowed. She wrote a romy story that was published in a collection of Xmen stories. She had a far better handle on the relationship than one would think.


Didn't Liu say she didn't like Gambit's relationship with Rogue or I'm remembering wrong? There wasn't enough Gambit in that book, and he was vocal about loving Rogue. Wasn't a fan. 
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on August 05, 2020, 01:32:04 PM
Don't remeber issue. It was just a panel or two.
Remy told that he remembered people that he loved and suddenly it was enough to put Deathbit back so Iceman should try the same. Orsmt like that.


It was rifgt before Iceman arrived and Gambit refused to fight him.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on August 05, 2020, 02:11:29 PM
What I find as amusing, is the sentiment that Liu was soft in regards to Gambit -
Love interest? And a few cool action sequences. -

Doesn't that sound familiar? *cough* Thompson *cough* Same thing.

Excalibur just amplifies the horrible treatment of Gambit. IMO

edit: the difference between Liu and Thompson, Gambit did get some story with Liu. He was looked up to, he mentored and was actually a useful member of the team. Not just support.

edit again: Liu would have used Rogue, but wasn't allowed. She wrote a romy story that was published in a collection of Xmen stories. She had a far better handle on the relationship than one would think.


really? Can you give a synopsis of the story, or do you know the title name and issue #? I'd be curious to see Liu's take on Romy, because I liked how she wrote Logan and Remy.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Nekobaghira on August 05, 2020, 02:26:30 PM

Didn't Liu say she didn't like Gambit's relationship with Rogue or I'm remembering wrong? There wasn't enough Gambit in that book, and he was vocal about loving Rogue. Wasn't a fan.
Not sure, but I thought in one of those question things, that she was asked if she would write Rogue and I thought she said, she didn't have access to her.  At the time Mike Carey had the exclusive to Rogue.

She might have not liked the relationship, I don't know. I don't recall, its been a long time.


really? Can you give a synopsis of the story, or do you know the title name and issue #? I'd be curious to see Liu's take on Romy, because I liked how she wrote Logan and Remy.
Yeah, I'll have to look it up. Or find the book in my hobby room. I can tell you the title was "Dark Mirror" 2005 is when it was published.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on August 05, 2020, 02:32:23 PM
I am surprised. I thought that Liu never liked Romy.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Nekobaghira on August 05, 2020, 02:36:42 PM
Maybe she doesn't or changed her mind. Or because she had access to Gambit, and she was fond of Cece. I don't know. It's been ages.
Okay, not much Gambit in Dark Mirror, I'll look for the short story.  But in Dark Mirror she did write Rogue.
I'm probably remembering wrong. It's an age thing.  :crazy2:
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: andresa on August 05, 2020, 02:55:13 PM
Don't remeber issue. It was just a panel or two.
Remy told that he remembered people that he loved and suddenly it was enough to put Deathbit back so Iceman should try the same. Orsmt like that.

It was rifgt before Iceman arrived and Gambit refused to fight him.

Thanks, I'll look it up.


really? Can you give a synopsis of the story, or do you know the title name and issue #? I'd be curious to see Liu's take on Romy, because I liked how she wrote Logan and Remy.

It's a novel. Gambit and Jubilee are supporting characters. It involves body swap with people an in asylum or something.

I am surprised. I thought that Liu never liked Romy.



I think so too.     
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on August 05, 2020, 04:00:11 PM
Not sure, but I thought in one of those question things, that she was asked if she would write Rogue and I thought she said, she didn't have access to her.  At the time Mike Carey had the exclusive to Rogue.

She might have not liked the relationship, I don't know. I don't recall, its been a long time.
Yeah, I'll have to look it up. Or find the book in my hobby room. I can tell you the title was "Dark Mirror" 2005 is when it was published.


2005...God, I am old. 15 years feels like yesterday to me.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on August 06, 2020, 02:50:39 AM
That page


(https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11113/111138516/4154762-iceman%203.jpg)
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on August 06, 2020, 09:55:20 AM
Thanks!


See, for me, Liu has a great grasp on the character, actually knows his history...and presents him pretty favorably.


1.) He's being a gentleman, carrying Warbird, and rejecting the coat offer.
2.) Being a bad ass, handling the freezing temperatures without complaint.
3.) Being noble, protecting Rogue's honor, politely.
4.) Showing strength of character, overcoming the Death persona.
5.) Defending Bobby's honor/character (at his own expense)
6.) Showing bad assert awareness of surroundings by revealing he was aware of Bobby's presence all along
7.) Stylish and cool shirt and tie.
8.) A ting of mysteriousness, and innate cool.


Don't like he admitted he couldn't beat Bobby, but, could be a feign.

Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on August 06, 2020, 10:44:21 AM
I love that page. Gambit clearly explained how he defeated Death and what Iceman should do. It is his inner fight that he must struggle.


Liu`s Gambit was confident. He knew what to say and when. When to support, when to calm down someone and when to advice.
Also he was taking leader responsibilities all the time when Logan wasn`t near. It was his plan how to defeat villains in first arc (Karma`s family or smth like that) and in frozen arc he was leading team too when Logan got frozen.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on August 06, 2020, 11:40:03 AM
Always viewed Gambit as a flirt, and a man that COULD pull any chick he wanted, but, didn't...as in he was very exclusive. Which makes him better than say, Tony Stark. s***, Wolverine's had more confirmed sexual partners than Gambit.


Iceman, Cyclops, Angel, and Colossus have more confirmed partners than Gambit. Just about everyone, actually....
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on August 06, 2020, 12:11:29 PM
You guys keep saying Gambit was "good" in Astonishing... I mean, he wasnt bad. I read the same run as you guys... We've done this before. Tell me... what did Gambit do in that entire run? Maybe he did some fighting when the Marauders blew up his apartment? Don't remember. I think he threw a card at Iceman's foot? Being looked up to and making a couple poignant speeches in an action comic isn't really "doing" all that much, in my opinion. Her Gambit was fine... but not much different than what we got from Carey (not a bad thing, despite his dismount, Carey wrote a pretty decent Gambit), except with less explosions. So, from a guy that makes things blow up... ya know, less.  And as you all mentioned, got manhandled by Mystique.


Again, not a bad run. He wasn't written poorly at all... It was just #@$#% boring. He didnt do anything. And I really disliked the box-y art. What makes it a bit more annoying is that she promised us a Gambit arc but it never happened. Guess she ran out of time. We all appreciate different aspects of storytelling. I enjoy Gambit being the guy that Nick Fury praised as one of the best hand-to-hand fighters as well exploring his character, background, build lore, etc. Lui's Gambit was more introspective. Slow. Thoughtful. Nothing wrong with that - Gambit is all those things as well, he hides it under his brashness. It's just that is all we got from her version.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on August 06, 2020, 02:54:04 PM
You guys keep saying Gambit was "good" in Astonishing... I mean, he wasnt bad. I read the same run as you guys... We've done this before. Tell me... what did Gambit do in that entire run? Maybe he did some fighting when the Marauders blew up his apartment? Don't remember. I think he threw a card at Iceman's foot? Being looked up to and making a couple poignant speeches in an action comic isn't really "doing" all that much, in my opinion. Her Gambit was fine... but not much different than what we got from Carey (not a bad thing, despite his dismount, Carey wrote a pretty decent Gambit), except with less explosions. So, from a guy that makes things blow up... ya know, less.  And as you all mentioned, got manhandled by Mystique.


Again, not a bad run. He wasn't written poorly at all... It was just #@$#% boring. He didnt do anything. And I really disliked the box-y art. What makes it a bit more annoying is that she promised us a Gambit arc but it never happened. Guess she ran out of time. We all appreciate different aspects of storytelling. I enjoy Gambit being the guy that Nick Fury praised as one of the best hand-to-hand fighters as well exploring his character, background, build lore, etc. Lui's Gambit was more introspective. Slow. Thoughtful. Nothing wrong with that - Gambit is all those things as well, he hides it under his brashness. It's just that is all we got from her version.



Well, despite my earlier praise I can agree with most of this. Her run was boring. Gambit did next to no fighting, no action...and the art sucked. Like you, I want 90's style jumping, flipping, high kicking, ass kicking, acrobatic bad assery action Gambit with a dangerous edge to him. But, I suppose I like Liu's run as she handled him so, so much better than most handled him prior to, or after, and while he did little, at least he was (save losing to Mystique) never handled embarrassingly (incompetent, whiney, b***hy, constantly embarrassed, literally cucked, always beaten, sketchy, sleazy, etc), so it makes her run seem better. Also, he was cool in X23 (his destroying of Daken's arm was probably his gnarliest feat since the late 90's), so maybe it helps me view her run more favorably.


That, and as I say I used to tweet with her and she was nice.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on August 06, 2020, 03:06:02 PM
Well, I agree with Don, overall.


Damn, that Fury quote. I see it a lot on the net but noone knows where it came from. Not even Dantay could tell.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: andresa on August 06, 2020, 03:21:35 PM
You guys keep saying Gambit was "good" in Astonishing... I mean, he wasnt bad. I read the same run as you guys... We've done this before. Tell me... what did Gambit do in that entire run? Maybe he did some fighting when the Marauders blew up his apartment? Don't remember. I think he threw a card at Iceman's foot? Being looked up to and making a couple poignant speeches in an action comic isn't really "doing" all that much, in my opinion. Her Gambit was fine... but not much different than what we got from Carey (not a bad thing, despite his dismount, Carey wrote a pretty decent Gambit), except with less explosions. So, from a guy that makes things blow up... ya know, less.  And as you all mentioned, got manhandled by Mystique.


Again, not a bad run. He wasn't written poorly at all... It was just #@$#% boring. He didnt do anything. And I really disliked the box-y art. What makes it a bit more annoying is that she promised us a Gambit arc but it never happened. Guess she ran out of time. We all appreciate different aspects of storytelling. I enjoy Gambit being the guy that Nick Fury praised as one of the best hand-to-hand fighters as well exploring his character, background, build lore, etc. Lui's Gambit was more introspective. Slow. Thoughtful. Nothing wrong with that - Gambit is all those things as well, he hides it under his brashness. It's just that is all we got from her version.



I agree. That run was boring and forgettable, so much so that the only thing that stuck was Gambit adopting cats.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on August 06, 2020, 03:33:20 PM
Well, I agree with Don, overall.


Damn, that Fury quote. I see it a lot on the net but noone knows where it came from. Not even Dantay could tell.


I know exactly where it comes from.


X-Men Adventures (the comic based on X-Men the Animated Series episodes) #9, featured a 14 page preview of things to come, and contained the Nick Fury files quote. Also, I think it was in the Maximum Anniversay X-Perience, a sorta...spiral style book that laid out the mansion, danger room, blackbird details, etc. It showed off Gambit's bedroom I recall haha.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on August 06, 2020, 03:51:06 PM
Well, I agree with Don, overall.


Damn, that Fury quote. I see it a lot on the net but noone knows where it came from. Not even Dantay could tell.


Pretty sure I have the book upstairs... I'll have to look at it. I think it was a narration box.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on August 06, 2020, 04:01:44 PM

I know exactly where it comes from.


X-Men Adventures (the comic based on X-Men the Animated Series episodes) #9, featured a 14 page preview of things to come, and contained the Nick Fury files quote. Also, I think it was in the Maximum Anniversay X-Perience, a sorta...spiral style book that laid out the mansion, danger room, blackbird details, etc. It showed off Gambit's bedroom I recall haha.


Even without the quote, that era of Gambit is the one that made me a fan. "bang you dead" deflecting bullets with a stick, picking locks with a spike in his leg, french kissing a Jean-bot, Taco Bell dating, Blackcat chillin', Sabretooth abusing, chain smoking (hey, the X-Men are immortal now, right ?  ;) ), Harley riding, gumbo stewing, Bishop chest jabbin', Batmobile stealing, tortured soul, devil may care, Ragin Cajun that can do more than be saved and lectured.


I look at what he is now and even in X-Factor and wonder what the @#@$ did Marvel pay James Asmus for? Ok, I get it, everyone has their favorites, but there are actual writers Marvel employs that want to write the character. He has fans - I just dont get the point of sticking him with creators that obviously have no interest or respect for the character. His and Rogue's usage in Excalibur is so obviously just for attention its maddening. Gambit's a running joke and Rogue wasnt in the book for half the run. And I'll say it again - they dont have to be in a book together.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on August 06, 2020, 04:13:43 PM

Even without the quote, that era of Gambit is the one that made me a fan. "bang you dead" deflecting bullets with a stick, picking locks with a spike in his leg, french kissing a Jean-bot, Taco Bell dating, Blackcat chillin', Sabretooth abusing, chain smoking (hey, the X-Men are immortal now, right ?  ;) ), Harley riding, gumbo stewing, Bishop chest jabbin', Batmobile stealing, tortured soul, devil may care, Ragin Cajun that can do more than be saved and lectured.



This, word for word.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on August 06, 2020, 04:19:16 PM

I know exactly where it comes from.


X-Men Adventures (the comic based on X-Men the Animated Series episodes) #9, featured a 14 page preview of things to come, and contained the Nick Fury files quote. Also, I think it was in the Maximum Anniversay X-Perience, a sorta...spiral style book that laid out the mansion, danger room, blackbird details, etc. It showed off Gambit's bedroom I recall haha.


X-Men Adventures has only info and sketches of Gambit about his first series by Howard and Weeks.




Maybe you has some scans of that Maximum issue? It is probably hard to find it.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on August 06, 2020, 04:23:23 PM

Even without the quote, that era of Gambit is the one that made me a fan. "bang you dead" deflecting bullets with a stick, picking locks with a spike in his leg, french kissing a Jean-bot, Taco Bell dating, Blackcat chillin', Sabretooth abusing, chain smoking (hey, the X-Men are immortal now, right ?  ;) ), Harley riding, gumbo stewing, Bishop chest jabbin', Batmobile stealing, tortured soul, devil may care, Ragin Cajun that can do more than be saved and lectured.


I look at what he is now and even in X-Factor and wonder what the @#@$ did Marvel pay James Asmus for? Ok, I get it, everyone has their favorites, but there are actual writers Marvel employs that want to write the character. He has fans - I just dont get the point of sticking him with creators that obviously have no interest or respect for the character. His and Rogue's usage in Excalibur is so obviously just for attention its maddening. Gambit's a running joke and Rogue wasnt in the book for half the run. And I'll say it again - they dont have to be in a book together.


I feel you. May sound like absurd but I won't be surprised if Howard hates him. Writer can write some characters bad if don't know them but in issue 7 his cards don't even explode twice. It just feels like evil trolling.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on August 06, 2020, 05:09:10 PM

X-Men Adventures has only info and sketches of Gambit about his first series by Howard and Weeks.




Maybe you has some scans of that Maximum issue? It is probably hard to find it.


You're right,I just saw that online (like, a free copy of XMA#9)...maybe it was on the back of a card...I have a copy of the Maximum but it's at my parents house inter attic...can't really access it.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on August 06, 2020, 05:34:20 PM
Okay, apparently the quote's not in either of the comics I ould have put money on it was in, or the trading cards.


Now, I'm really frustrated.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on August 07, 2020, 05:13:51 AM
Okay, apparently the quote's not in either of the comics I ould have put money on it was in, or the trading cards.


Now, I'm really frustrated.


Don`t worry. I think we will find it sooner or later ;)
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on October 18, 2020, 11:42:47 AM
It truly saddens and frustrates me how often writers get Gambit wrong. The Gambit that is routinely featured in the main X-Men books is often a facade. The carefree playboy doesn't really exist - as we all know, historically he's got less of romantic history than most of his peers - including Iceman, who apparently doesn't even like girls. Heck, he's beaten Gambit again racking up two more since coming out!


I get it. Outside of a literal handful of X-Men issues - most of his character development is done within the pages of his mini's and ongoings. Chances are, if your not a fan, you're probably not reading those much. That's ok for fans. For writers, however, that's unacceptable. If you're going to commit yourself to writing a character you owe it to that subject to at least skim his reference materials.


Well, not just Gambit - the flesh and blood people that wrote the character. They are owed the consideration of having their work respectfully taken into account. But this is all stuff editors used to enforce with their writers - or at least make sure it wasn't egregiously ignored. If a writer portrays the character based simply on what they've seen of him in the main X-Men books (assuming they've read any he's been a normal part of) or the by how he behaved in any of the animated series' - they don't understand the character at all.

Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on October 19, 2020, 04:42:19 PM
It truly saddens and frustrates me how often writers get Gambit wrong. The Gambit that is routinely featured in the main X-Men books is often a facade. The carefree playboy doesn't really exist - as we all know, historically he's got less of romantic history than most of his peers - including Iceman, who apparently doesn't even like girls. Heck, he's beaten Gambit again racking up two more since coming out!


I get it. Outside of a literal handful of X-Men issues - most of his character development is done within the pages of his mini's and ongoings. Chances are, if your not a fan, you're probably not reading those much. That's ok for fans. For writers, however, that's unacceptable. If you're going to commit yourself to writing a character you owe it to that subject to at least skim his reference materials.


Well, not just Gambit - the flesh and blood people that wrote the character. They are owed the consideration of having their work respectfully taken into account. But this is all stuff editors used to enforce with their writers - or at least make sure it wasn't egregiously ignored. If a writer portrays the character based simply on what they've seen of him in the main X-Men books (assuming they've read any he's been a normal part of) or the by how he behaved in any of the animated series' - they don't understand the character at all.


Amen. Lack of continuity or adherence to a character's personality have ruined so many comics. "Writers" ignorant of anything other than a general outline of a character basically just pen whatever, and it gets put to print.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Nekobaghira on October 19, 2020, 05:04:29 PM
When we were actually enjoying books, it was all character driven, the story showcasing traits or character growth.
Now, its all story driven and character be damned. Its awful.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: NicoPony on October 19, 2020, 07:59:54 PM
Srsly, bring back the telenovella aspect, Claremont was all Soap opera back in the day. Lots of catching people kissing, misunderstandings, human interaction.


Post Claremont,


I reread the Thanksgiving issue where Jean proposes to Scott the other day and cried like a baby.


Reread the first Gambit solo ish where JL sends G back to the past to rescue his kid self from Candra, and realized there is a panel where JL actually has TEARS bc he knows his kid self with betray his son and IT’S ALL THE FEELS.


Wtf happened to all that!? All Totally unrelatable garbage now!


.
When we were actually enjoying books, it was all character driven, the story showcasing traits or character growth.
Now, its all story driven and character be damned. Its awful.

Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on October 20, 2020, 01:39:13 PM
Srsly, bring back the telenovella aspect, Claremont was all Soap opera back in the day. Lots of catching people kissing, misunderstandings, human interaction.


Post Claremont,


I reread the Thanksgiving issue where Jean proposes to Scott the other day and cried like a baby.


Reread the first Gambit solo ish where JL sends G back to the past to rescue his kid self from Candra, and realized there is a panel where JL actually has TEARS bc he knows his kid self with betray his son and IT’S ALL THE FEELS.


Wtf happened to all that!? All Totally unrelatable garbage now!


.


Love that issue. My second most heartfelt X-Men moment after the post Onslaught pancake scene.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on October 20, 2020, 01:46:38 PM
When we were actually enjoying books, it was all character driven, the story showcasing traits or character growth.
Now, its all story driven and character be damned. Its awful.


Agreed. You could read Claremont word bibles without the art and know who's talking based on personality, attitude and yes, accent. Nowadays everyone is the same, and often just standing around in panels.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on October 20, 2020, 06:03:30 PM
One of my biggest pet peeves in today's style of comics. Walls of text. I'm a fan of Leah Williams - but I'm set to drop X-Factor from issue one. Issue two was even worse. The only thing stopping me is my desire to continue supporting my LCS... But I'm pretty sure I'm done with it. Her issue of X of Swords wasn't bad - but it also suffered the same avalanche of text - just not as severe.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on October 20, 2020, 06:28:53 PM
I may not have it in me to write a book - but I think I can whip up a treatment and set-up better than most. I'm expecting to see the books scrambled up a bit after this ridiculously long crossover. I came up with a concept I'd like explored through a revamp of Fallen Angels.


Fallen Angels vol. 3


Nightcrawler, Gambit, Frenzy, Husk, Hellion, Tempo


Think Burn Notice in terms of function. The team helps people while exploring a large arc(s). All mission are off-isle and assigned by a Krakoa council liaison, in this case it's Mystique. Magneto and Xavier hope to use this position to distract her. on behalf of a long list of requests from Krakoa citizens. Krakoans are safe to leave the island - but it's not recommended due to the hostile political climate. Kurt, being a council member himself, is pointman for the team. Mystique being the curator of their assignments - she chooses where the team's focus should be. Unbeknownst to them, many of the errands she sends them on are actually to help her achieve her own goals.


Frenzy is drafted but would have gladly volunteered. She just wants to get off the isle and mix it up. Tempo seeks redemption for a wasted past. She also wishes to reconnect with estranged family that she discovers has fallen in with anti-Krakoa extremist. Hellion has been stirring up trouble - mostly since Laura's disappearance into the vault. He blames the council for sending her. As a form of penance or probation he's placed on the squad to focus his emotions. He wants to be here the least but latches onto Gambit as a mentor, of sorts. Gambit uses the opportunity to look into his own affairs with the Guild.


There've been disturbances in his absence. Secretly, he's also been tapped by the Hell Fire Club to assist in exporting the Krakoan drugs within circles of the black market that even they cannot reach without starting an international incident. Mystique, of course, is aware and uses this as well. Husk, like Frenzy seeks adventure and also wants to do right by the Guthrie family name in Sam's extraterrestrial absence. She's the most trustworthy and upbeat of the group - but still morally flexible enough to allow the team to function.


At first, Nightcrawler will struggle to manage the group's dynamic. He unexpectedly finds himself leaning on Gambit, his brother-in-law, for help in this aspect. Out of all the team members he clashes with Frenzy most often. He's optimistic and easy going - she's stubborn and short-tempered. Perhaps they protest too much? The team tackles everything from missing family members, asset recovery, corporate espionage to investigating violence against mutants abroad.


What are your thoughts on my dream set up within the current climate?
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on October 24, 2020, 05:05:24 PM
 I really like their dynamic here. Always happy to see Gambit as mentor and always glad to see more Gambit/Frenzy.Don't care about Hellion but mentor plot can be good.


Would change Hust and Tempo for any other characters.
Would be glad to change them to Onyxx that is probably the last one in line for ressurection.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on October 24, 2020, 10:36:00 PM
I really like their dynamic here. Always happy to see Gambit as mentor and always glad to see more Gambit/Frenzy.Don't care about Hellion but mentor plot can be good.


Would change Hust and Tempo for any other characters.
Would be glad to change them to Onyxx that is probably the last one in line for ressurection.


lol Onyx has too much past conflict with Mystique, who would be a big part of the story. Or did you forget his whole thing with Foxx?
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on October 25, 2020, 06:21:23 AM

lol Onyx has too much past conflict with Mystique, who would be a big part of the story. Or did you forget his whole thing with Foxx?


He is just a kid that wanted to be loved :)
X-Men always were a soap opera.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: cajunpirate on November 04, 2020, 05:06:09 PM
I have to say....X of Swords is about as exciting as watching paint dry. What the hell were they thinking?

Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on November 05, 2020, 11:00:26 AM
It's interesting purely from a world-building standpoint... but most of it doesnt make sense. Like at all. Not the conflict, not the character origins, not the way the Krakoans (X-Men) are reacting to impending doom - I'm not even sure what the motivations are. It seems that Akkara (?) and other "dark realms" are trying to dominate other worlds and for some reason they are being stopped by this Emma Frost- looking woman (Saturnyne) to battle in a Mortal Kombat-esk fighting tournament? I'm assuming they want to take over all of Earth's realm, not just Krakoa... which would cause a whole other issue with the rest of the universe, right? Marvel's Universe extends beyond just Earth. I think all the other beings would have a problem with this.


There's so much to sort through... like the idea that Apocalypse ruled an ancient Krakoa populated by thousands of ultra-powerful mutants - but we never heard of it? I'm just supposed to accept that? There's a lot of retconning going on and they aren't even bothering to explain most of it. I'm not reading that 40pg companion book just to understand the comic book series I've been reading for more than a year. Seriously - the @#@% were they thinking with all this?
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on November 05, 2020, 03:58:18 PM
It's interesting purely from a world-building standpoint... but most of it doesnt make sense. Like at all. Not the conflict, not the character origins, not the way the Krakoans (X-Men) are reacting to impending doom - I'm not even sure what the motivations are. It seems that Akkara (?) and other "dark realms" are trying to dominate other worlds and for some reason they are being stopped by this Emma Frost- looking woman (Saturnyne) to battle in a Mortal Kombat-esk fighting tournament? I'm assuming they want to take over all of Earth's realm, not just Krakoa... which would cause a whole other issue with the rest of the universe, right? Marvel's Universe extends beyond just Earth. I think all the other beings would have a problem with this.


There's so much to sort through... like the idea that Apocalypse ruled an ancient Krakoa populated by thousands of ultra-powerful mutants - but we never heard of it? I'm just supposed to accept that? There's a lot of retconning going on and they aren't even bothering to explain most of it. I'm not reading that 40pg companion book just to understand the comic book series I've been reading for more than a year. Seriously - the @#@% were they thinking with all this?


I don't think they were. Someone came up with a dumb idea, without doing any research or adherence to continuity or logic, and it was rubber stamped with some positive affirmation, and sent to print, without a decent editor even saying, "What, uhm, hold up."
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on November 17, 2020, 09:10:59 AM
At first, I was a bit annoyed by Gambit, again, being left out of another X-Men event - but seeing what X of Swords has devolved into, I cant help but feel a bit relieved. Tini's obsession with the occult I thought would only go as far as it could with an event involving swordplay - but somehow it's more about silly magic and parlor tricks than anything else. The event is truly more about the symbolism of swords as they have to do with tarot cards. I could imagine what type of buffoonery she and the other writers would have lined up for Gambit - assuming he'd survive it without being twisted after an embarrassing death - as we saw with Rockslide. Rockslide is a minor character, at best. I'm sure his fate was simply foreshadowing, as death has become with the X-Men, his was a tool or plot device - someone else is going to die and be reborn dramatically altered, just as Santos was at the beginning of this crossover. Glad it wont be Gambit... could you imagine the butchering of his character at the hands of these hacks?
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: killphil on December 12, 2020, 08:58:32 AM
Okay, apparently the quote's not in either of the comics I ould have put money on it was in, or the trading cards.


Now, I'm really frustrated.
I can tell you exactly where that quote came from. "One of the best fighters I've ever seen"-Nick Fury. It came from one of those official strategy guides from Brady Games. It was for a game called Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2. Every character bio has a dossier "written" by Nick Fury. Much in the same vein as these:


(https://i.imgur.com/2u7pXGr.jpg)

It was this book

(https://i.imgur.com/TYKWWvT.jpg)

Don't have a copy, and can't find the specific page on Gambit online, but these are the general gist of every character.


(https://i.imgur.com/3rp3TV0.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/OLlM6GW.jpg)


Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on December 12, 2020, 10:07:51 AM
Cool! Now I need to find that magazine.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on December 12, 2020, 10:09:45 AM
At first, I was a bit annoyed by Gambit, again, being left out of another X-Men event - but seeing what X of Swords has devolved into, I cant help but feel a bit relieved. Tini's obsession with the occult I thought would only go as far as it could with an event involving swordplay - but somehow it's more about silly magic and parlor tricks than anything else. The event is truly more about the symbolism of swords as they have to do with tarot cards. I could imagine what type of buffoonery she and the other writers would have lined up for Gambit - assuming he'd survive it without being twisted after an embarrassing death - as we saw with Rockslide. Rockslide is a minor character, at best. I'm sure his fate was simply foreshadowing, as death has become with the X-Men, his was a tool or plot device - someone else is going to die and be reborn dramatically altered, just as Santos was at the beginning of this crossover. Glad it wont be Gambit... could you imagine the butchering of his character at the hands of these hacks?




We had an event about Tarot cards and the only X character that are using cards as weapons were not used in it. They hate him.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: killphil on December 12, 2020, 11:09:01 AM
And as you all mentioned, got manhandled by Mystique.
When did this happen?

I enjoy Gambit being the guy that Nick Fury praised as one of the best hand-to-hand fighters as well exploring his character, background, build lore, etc. Lui's Gambit was more introspective. Slow. Thoughtful. Nothing wrong with that - Gambit is all those things as well, he hides it under his brashness. It's just that is all we got from her version.
So which run is this? Are you talking about Majorie Lui's run on X-23 where he co-starred, or did she write something else with Gambit? I'm out of the loop. But wasn't there just a Gambit/Rogue limited series and then Mr & Mrs X recently? He seemed written perfectly in character in those books and had alot of great fight scenes, dialogue, and the way the writer had Gambit and Rogue interact and resolve their differences felt so genuine and perfectly in character. Felt like I was reading the same Gambit & Rogue I used to watch every Sat morning and read every month in the 90's.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: RomeoSvengali on December 12, 2020, 11:56:58 PM
The first image is from X-Men Adventures (1992) #9 on page 31.
https://www.comicextra.com/x-men-adventures-1992/chapter-9/31
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on December 14, 2020, 12:18:03 AM
When did this happen?
So which run is this? Are you talking about Majorie Lui's run on X-23 where he co-starred, or did she write something else with Gambit? I'm out of the loop. But wasn't there just a Gambit/Rogue limited series and then Mr & Mrs X recently? He seemed written perfectly in character in those books and had alot of great fight scenes, dialogue, and the way the writer had Gambit and Rogue interact and resolve their differences felt so genuine and perfectly in character. Felt like I was reading the same Gambit & Rogue I used to watch every Sat morning and read every month in the 90's.


Yes Lui's Astonishing X-Men when Mystique went all octo-future mother in law on him. Same issue he got the cats.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: killphil on December 14, 2020, 10:53:46 AM

Yes Lui's Astonishing X-Men when Mystique went all octo-future mother in law on him. Same issue he got the cats.
Just looked that issue up on Readallcomics.com. #63? I wouldn't exactly call that manhandling. He fought her rather well, even if he did get compromised.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on December 22, 2020, 09:22:51 AM
He was physically restrained and got a talking to while a box of kittens was basically forced on him. I think "manhandled" works here. But, meh.


On another note - shapeshifters used to have rules. Mystique is rarely held to them though. Growing tentacles doesn't mean they have added strength or looking like Nightcrawler doesn't mean they become super agile. That's more "metamorph" like Jake/Jackie (Courier), where the person's change isn't skin-deep but they become what they look like. Mystique shouldn't have been able to do what she did to Gambit. Her power doesn't include added strength.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on December 22, 2020, 12:27:52 PM
He was physically restrained and got a talking to while a box of kittens was basically forced on him. I think "manhandled" works here. But, meh.


On another note - shapeshifters used to have rules. Mystique is rarely held to them though. Growing tentacles doesn't mean they have added strength or looking like Nightcrawler doesn't mean they become super agile. That's more "metamorph" like Jake/Jackie (Courier), where the person's change isn't skin-deep but they become what they look like. Mystique shouldn't have been able to do what she did to Gambit. Her power doesn't include added strength.


Amen. She's a shapeshifter, not Mr.Fantastic. I love Liu, feel she writes a competent, cool, caring Gambit, but having him lose that exchange really, really pissed me off. How many times now has Mystique embarrassed Gambit??
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: killphil on December 23, 2020, 08:50:09 AM

Amen. She's a shapeshifter, not Mr.Fantastic. I love Liu, feel she writes a competent, cool, caring Gambit, but having him lose that exchange really, really pissed me off. How many times now has Mystique embarrassed Gambit??
I feel that as super fans of characters, it gets easy to slip into wanting our favorite to be a Gary Stu. But when the story is written from the perspective of the protagonist, then the characters need to have adversity and not just win all the time. I find a story far more engaging when the hero has to struggle a bit to come out on top or sometimes not at all.

Like in Star Wars. If Luke just beat Vader on their 1st duel, it would have completely rendered Vader as incompetent for the next movie,  a mistake I feel the newer Disney films made with Rey and Kylo. It made the villain non threatening and I found myself not rooting for the hero. I just like good character driven storys where the character is respected even if they dont win everytime.

I certainly have seeen my fair share of writers disrespect Gambit as a character, but I just don't see it in this particular story.
But I'm trying to remember, what other times have Mystique and Gambit fought besides that time he was Death all those years ago? I remember a scene before he was death where he was giving her a good fight, but maybe I'm missing some story's?

(https://i.imgur.com/Z6opvNx.jpg)
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on December 23, 2020, 04:44:39 PM
Uhm.. what Lui wrote in 2012 has little to do with what Milligan wrote in 2006. The two instances have nothing to do with each other. Throughout their history they've had conflicts more than once or twice. There's an issue during the Fabian run where he charged her legs. But... What does that have to do with Gambit getting physically overpowered in the book I referenced? I'm not saying he's unbeatable. I'm saying he got manhandled. Which he did.


At this point we're what? Arguing about whether she dominated him or not? She did. Not quite sure what the opposition is... Shouldn't have to say there's more wrong with that run concerning Gambit than that. It also led into his trouncing by Captain America in AvX, a high point with Asmus followed by his ongoing embarrassment in X-Factor.


I might have to reread my post because I think more is being made out of my post than intended. I'm not upset by it. It was an observation. I don't see a bias angle in what I said.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on December 23, 2020, 04:52:05 PM
Ok... This is stemming from conversation that started in August. I didn't even say it, I was reiterating someone else  ;D .


The point of my post wasn't to big up Gambits fighting ability, though it should be greater than Mystique, it was pointing out how lackluster his run in Astonishing was overall. That was just one instance towards the end of it. By that point I was kind of over it
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: killphil on December 24, 2020, 12:45:10 AM
Uhm.. what Lui wrote in 2012 has little to do with what Milligan wrote in 2006. The two instances have nothing to do with each other. Throughout their history they've had conflicts more than once or twice. There's an issue during the Fabian run where he charged her legs. But... What does that have to do with Gambit getting physically overpowered in the book I referenced? I'm not saying he's unbeatable. I'm saying he got manhandled. Which he did.


At this point we're what? Arguing about whether she dominated him or not? She did. Not quite sure what the opposition is... Shouldn't have to say there's more wrong with that run concerning Gambit than that. It also led into his trouncing by Captain America in AvX, a high point with Asmus followed by his ongoing embarrassment in X-Factor.


I might have to reread my post because I think more is being made out of my post than intended. I'm not upset by it. It was an observation. I don't see a bias angle in what I said.
Im not arguing. Just having a casual conversation. Its not that serious for me, bro lol.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: killphil on December 24, 2020, 12:56:36 AM
Ok... This is stemming from conversation that started in August. I didn't even say it, I was reiterating someone else  ;D .


The point of my post wasn't to big up Gambits fighting ability, though it should be greater than Mystique, it was pointing out how lackluster his run in Astonishing was overall. That was just one instance towards the end of it. By that point I was kind of over it
Thats why I quit reading comics. The characters are so much larger than the funny books marvel puts out. Most of these characters are pop culture icons that are FAR larger than the printed medium from which they originated. I find my enjoyment from the collectibles or from playing as my favorites in the numerous games. Seeing them in the movies (well not X-Men, but soon, maybe), re watching the old show with my son. All that stuff. Discussing stuff with fans. But thew books just don't hold water. Too many writers. No vision. Gone are the days of Claremont, Byrne, Lee at al. Comics could never become the medium they once were, at least not for me.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on December 24, 2020, 08:17:29 AM
I agree about the too many writers thing. But it's not just that. Editors don't seem to know how to do their job. If they are anything like the writers they are supposed to pull in then they probably don't have much of spine or even see anything to edit.


There's been so much bad stories that make it to print I wonder if anyone has taste anymore. Characters rarely behave as they are supposed to and function more like the mouthpiece of the writer.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: killphil on December 24, 2020, 08:47:03 AM
Yeah, it's the whole process. Without consistent writers, editors, and even artists like we had back in the 70's-90's, there will never be any consistent tone or characterization to any books or characters within. Probably why it's so easy for me to write off comics now days. And Marvel staff has long abandoned it's house style, about the time when when Quesada took over as EIC 20 years ago in favor of creators having more free reign. Which has been abysmal for the books and characters themselves.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on December 24, 2020, 10:24:36 AM
I agree that editors are doing nothing.


Also will add my 5 cents and remind more crap stories:
How Mystique broke Remy`s jaw with a single punch and told that he has a glass jaw. Thank you Bunn.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on December 28, 2020, 05:18:08 PM
I agree that editors are doing nothing.


Also will add my 5 cents and remind more crap stories:
How Mystique broke Remy`s jaw with a single punch and told that he has a glass jaw. Thank you Bunn.


Christ, I don't even remember that...maybe I blocked it from my memory.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on December 28, 2020, 05:21:29 PM
I feel that as super fans of characters, it gets easy to slip into wanting our favorite to be a Gary Stu. But when the story is written from the perspective of the protagonist, then the characters need to have adversity and not just win all the time. I find a story far more engaging when the hero has to struggle a bit to come out on top or sometimes not at all.

Like in Star Wars. If Luke just beat Vader on their 1st duel, it would have completely rendered Vader as incompetent for the next movie,  a mistake I feel the newer Disney films made with Rey and Kylo. It made the villain non threatening and I found myself not rooting for the hero. I just like good character driven storys where the character is respected even if they dont win everytime.

I certainly have seeen my fair share of writers disrespect Gambit as a character, but I just don't see it in this particular story.
But I'm trying to remember, what other times have Mystique and Gambit fought besides that time he was Death all those years ago? I remember a scene before he was death where he was giving her a good fight, but maybe I'm missing some story's?

(https://i.imgur.com/Z6opvNx.jpg)


Well, besides the fact that Gambit's faster than her, a better fighter, and larger/stronger and in theory, more durable, as well as slightly armored, to say nothing of his powers, it was sad that an angered/enraged Gambit was, at best, struggling with her. The line of "You can't even fight!" was, literally, an insult to the character, and fans. Also, Gambit punching her feels....also like they did him dirty. Gambit's not above taking a woman out, but a closed fist punch to the face? Seems scummy, and can't recall it any other time.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on December 28, 2020, 11:33:11 PM
I agree that editors are doing nothing.


Also will add my 5 cents and remind more crap stories:
How Mystique broke Remy`s jaw with a single punch and told that he has a glass jaw. Thank you Bunn.


... thanks for bringing that up. I too blocked that from my memory. Didn't Fantomex beat him too in that same issue? I know he won, but it's embarrassing to lose to his carbon copy
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on December 29, 2020, 06:38:06 AM

... thanks for bringing that up. I too blocked that from my memory. Didn't Fantomex beat him too in that same issue? I know he won, but it's embarrassing to lose to his carbon copy


Mystique tricked Remy when she used Rogue`s look. With one punch she broke Gambit`s jaw and told that he has a glass jaw. Later Fantomex was waiting while Gambit will fix his jaw so they can have round 2 of their fight. After that we saw 2 panels where Fanto was kicking Remy and Gambit was doing nothing kind to protect himself.


Garbage.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on December 29, 2020, 10:45:03 AM
They even changed his eyes during that story. They have his red and black eyes to that character no one cares about (Ulysses?) and recolored his eyes to white on black... It was totally lame.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: wantutosigh on December 29, 2020, 01:38:41 PM
If you want character A to beat character B in a book, there are ways to go about it without one of the characters looking bad. For instance, when Gambit beat Wolverine in the danger room shortly after Gambit's introduction, it was made pretty clear that Gambit had the edge because Wolverine was injured and distracted in the fight. You pump Gambit up and Wolverine saves face due to the circumstance. That's how you do it. You don't just bury one character in favor of another because that's the character you enjoy as a writer. You have to think of in universe rules and not destroying another characters credibility/reputation. It's somewhat similar to the rules of storytelling in pro wrestling.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on December 29, 2020, 05:31:39 PM
This. It's exactly like pro-wrestling. You can use an established character to get a new guy over, but book it in a way to keep them saving face, looking strong. I feel Gambit has been used to do that (being beaten by a new character to get them over) in the last 20 years without having him keep face, resulting in him looking weak.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on December 29, 2020, 05:33:15 PM

Mystique tricked Remy when she used Rogue`s look. With one punch she broke Gambit`s jaw and told that he has a glass jaw. Later Fantomex was waiting while Gambit will fix his jaw so they can have round 2 of their fight. After that we saw 2 panels where Fanto was kicking Remy and Gambit was doing nothing kind to protect himself.


Garbage.


And that's after Gambit looked weak in his fight against Fantomex. Sure, he won...off panel...but he got his nose broken, got physically beaten, disrespected and insulted, and even "saved" by Fantomex. Such bulls***.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on December 30, 2020, 03:01:47 PM

Xmen 16 and 17 variants. Art by Kael Ngu

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EqgoPGNXEAMQ9oh?format=jpg&name=medium)
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: killphil on December 30, 2020, 04:41:14 PM

Well, besides the fact that Gambit's faster than her, a better fighter, and larger/stronger and in theory, more durable, as well as slightly armored, to say nothing of his powers, it was sad that an angered/enraged Gambit was, at best, struggling with her.
But is he, though? Mystique is an extremely formidable foe. She is definitely stronger than Gambit. I remember in an old issue of Uncanny, think it was a few issues after Rogue joins the X-Men, Mystique kicks Wolverine in the neck so hard, the narration says if not for his healing factor and adamantium bones, that kick would have broken the neck and instantly killed an ordinary man. She is definitely more durable. Her shape shifting  gives her body more malleability and works much like a healing factor, hence her being so old and still in prime shape. She has more training and experience than Gambit due to her age.

I'd say Gambit has the edge on her in speed and agility and perhaps raw fighting ability, but I wouldn't say it's by a huge margin. They are pretty evenly matched IMO.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on December 30, 2020, 05:17:21 PM
Mystique's fighting ability, aside from this kick is theoretical. Gambit has beaten Wolverine and Sabertooth. He's fought Spiderman, Blade and Daredevil to stand stills. Two of which have super strength and dexterity along with super speed and agility. Heck, he's thwarted Gladiator one on one. The only other X-Men to do that was Cannonball. Mystique is far from a pushover, but I don't see how her resume stacks up against Gambit. Outside of theory. Nothing I've said is conjecture or opinion. All of this has occurred on panel. So, I don't want any of that "we're bias" -talk. We are.. but all this is canon.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: killphil on December 30, 2020, 05:21:47 PM
Mystique's fighting ability, aside from this kick is theoretical. Gambit has beaten Wolverine and Sabertooth. He's fought Spiderman, Blade and Daredevil to stand stills. Two of which have super strength and dexterity along with super speed and agility. Heck, he's thwarted Gladiator one on one. The only other X-Men to do that was Cannonball. Mystique is far from a pushover, but I don't see how her resume stacks up against Gambit. Outside of theory. Nothing I've said is conjecture or opinion. All of this has occurred on panel. So, I don't want any of that "we're bias" -talk. We are.. but all this is canon.
Why are you so aggressive? You come off that way, at least.
 I have many issues where Mystique shows extremely superior fighting skills. She has fought Wolverine brutally before. Ive seen her square off and beat Psylocke among many others. There is nothing theoretical about her abilities. She has decades of appearances and feats to pull from. Im not saying she's better, but she isn't that outclassed by Gambit by any means.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Icefanatic on December 30, 2020, 05:57:39 PM
This. It's exactly like pro-wrestling. You can use an established character to get a new guy over, but book it in a way to keep them saving face, looking strong. I feel Gambit has been used to do that (being beaten by a new character to get them over) in the last 20 years without having him keep face, resulting in him looking weak.

That's a big problem with modern comics in general, not enough care in protecting and preserving characters. The idea seems to be you can crap on characters like Superman or Batman and they are so big with such longevity that it doesn't hurt them and that's just not true. For strongly established characters it damages them, for characters that don't have that it practically destroys them. Marvel and DC do not seem to realize that many of their characters are largely coasting on the fumes of popularity from stories told decades ago, and much of what they currently do only serves to detract from and diminish that.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: NicoPony on December 30, 2020, 06:03:50 PM

It makes me so happy to see Gambit happy. Which makes the second panel so aggravating. I am sick to death of Mystique dicking him around! Find a new plot, for cripes sake. She used to be one of my fav characters and now I just can’t stand her. One note, Mystique who seems to only be motivated by her f***ed up co-dependent relationship with Rogue and Destiny. Too bad she can’t morph a new personality.


Why are you so aggressive? You come off that way, at least.


Nothing can’t be remedied with more emojis and a re-reading of past posts in Dr. Farnsworth’s voice. Frankly. It’s a treat to see posts getting ...uh, posted!

Xmen 16 and 17 variants. Art by Kael Ngu

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EqgoPGNXEAMQ9oh?format=jpg&name=medium)
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on December 30, 2020, 06:08:44 PM
Why are you so aggressive? You come off that way, at least.
 I have many issues where Mystique shows extremely superior fighting skills. She has fought Wolverine brutally before. Ive seen her square off and beat Psylocke among many others. There is nothing theoretical about her abilities. She has decades of appearances and feats to pull from. Im not saying she's better, but she isn't that outclassed by Gambit by any means.


This is a message board. Not sure how you measure "aggressive". I was mostly being tongue and cheek which is why at the end I admitted we are bias... I didn't put anything caps... Didn't think I had to type lol. Didn't know difference in opinion = aggressive. My apologies if that what you got, buy perhaps you should maybe, perhaps relax? There's no beef here.


Chill.


And I just gave you several examples and came back with some glancing encounters. I'm not debating if Mystique can fight. She can. She's just not in Gambits class in hand to hand one on one, which is why it annoys people when he's constantly caught off guard by her. Well, three times at least now. I suppose when it's happened so often it's canon. Which, again, is annoying when you compare their resumes. Essentially it comes down to writer preference.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: killphil on December 30, 2020, 07:34:46 PM

This is a message board. Not sure how you measure "aggressive". I was mostly being tongue and cheek which is why at the end I admitted we are bias... I didn't put anything caps... Didn't think I had to type lol. Didn't know difference in opinion = aggressive. My apologies if that what you got, buy perhaps you should maybe, perhaps relax? There's no beef here.


Chill.


And I just gave you several examples and came back with some glancing encounters. I'm not debating if Mystique can fight. She can. She's just not in Gambits class in hand to hand one on one, which is why it annoys people when he's constantly caught off guard by her. Well, three times at least now. I suppose when it's happened so often it's canon. Which, again, is annoying when you compare their resumes. Essentially it comes down to writer preference.
I'm totally relaxed, bud. Was just an observation from the statement I dont wanna hear anything about...which read angry to me. It's like you said, can't measure tone on a message board, so it's quite easy to take anything read as literal unless it's denoted otherwise. But I'm assuming you are taking my statements the same way lol.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: andresa on December 30, 2020, 08:53:01 PM
Xmen 16 and 17 variants. Art by Kael Ngu

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EqgoPGNXEAMQ9oh?format=jpg&name=medium)


Thought the left image was cute but the other one totally ruined it for me.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: andresa on December 30, 2020, 08:57:22 PM
Another variant:

(https://64.media.tumblr.com/48969bed64cf2b816be2e5ba3a818922/126bae9d1132f2e6-18/s540x810/af1b3b54d8b903d646b23dc70548e0c78e375200.jpg)

https://64.media.tumblr.com/48969bed64cf2b816be2e5ba3a818922/126bae9d1132f2e6-18/s540x810/af1b3b54d8b903d646b23dc70548e0c78e375200.jpg
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: andresa on December 30, 2020, 08:59:58 PM
If you want character A to beat character B in a book, there are ways to go about it without one of the characters looking bad. For instance, when Gambit beat Wolverine in the danger room shortly after Gambit's introduction, it was made pretty clear that Gambit had the edge because Wolverine was injured and distracted in the fight. You pump Gambit up and Wolverine saves face due to the circumstance. That's how you do it. You don't just bury one character in favor of another because that's the character you enjoy as a writer. You have to think of in universe rules and not destroying another characters credibility/reputation. It's somewhat similar to the rules of storytelling in pro wrestling.


That's too much to ask from current "talents" at Marvel.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on December 30, 2020, 10:12:15 PM
Xmen 16 and 17 variants. Art by Kael Ngu

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EqgoPGNXEAMQ9oh?format=jpg&name=medium)


Love these btw. Really do. The subtle reaction in the 2nd is awesome.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: NicoPony on December 31, 2020, 11:04:00 AM

Love these btw. Really do. The subtle reaction in the 2nd is awesome.


I’d like to think he’s doing a spit take.


Mystique wants his baby.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on December 31, 2020, 08:48:35 PM
Haha... That's wrong on so many many levels.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on December 31, 2020, 09:39:28 PM

Love these btw. Really do. The subtle reaction in the 2nd is awesome.


I find it funny too:)
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on January 03, 2021, 04:07:51 PM
I find the idea of Mystique secretly having the hots for Gambit as intriguing as the idea of Rogue's affection for him being due to Carol's influences on her mind. I've brought it up before, but before absorbing Carol, Rogue had no intention of being a hero.


Then all of sudden she turns a new leaf. In the process strikes up a relationship with Gambit. That could have been enough and fair, but almost as soon as Rogue's mind is wiped clean she takes off and despite being to control her powers to a measure - rejects Gambit.


This ultimately turned into her entertaining Magneto's advances which led to the... weird hook up and weirder relationship even after knowing his role in the horrible situation that was Gambits Trial. We all know it was result of a retcon, but if it's canon, instead of ignoring the erratic behavior, they should have explored it.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: andresa on January 04, 2021, 09:20:22 AM
Rogue's affection for him being due to Carol's influences on her mind.

Don't like this conjecture. Back when Rogue was a villain (which was a short run) she was also very young, a teenager, and under the influence of Mystique and the others, she was a pawn. She didn’t just have a change of heart. She sought Xavier and the X-Men for help because she was desperate. After attacking Carol Denvers she was even more out of control than before and being tormented by Denvers. She was being punished and may have realized the gravity of her actions, and feeling guilty. With the X-Men she might've realized that their way was the right way.

I know it’s not exactly a strong argument but the whole Rogueneto fiasco can be explained through awful writing and pathetic self-inserting. The “you were experienced” line in their solo isn’t exactly convincing but better than “she didn’t really like him on her own”.

Saying Rogue wasn’t really in love with Gambit turns their romance into an irrelevant fraud, and this goes against evidence. Despite all the crappy writing we endure Gambit and Rogue have been shown to be compatible before, and when Rogue had her mind clean, such as during X-Men X-treme and around the time of the wedding.

I honestly hate rationalizing bad writing, because it comes down to our doing our utmost to explain what's on paper, cause that's only what matters, while knowing the external reasons for some pretty ridiculous decisions.

Also, Gambit is everyone’s type. 
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on January 04, 2021, 11:51:11 AM
Well, every (straight) woman's type anyway.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on January 04, 2021, 05:57:26 PM

I’d like to think he’s doing a spit take.


Mystique wants his baby.


Messed up but, hilarious.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: andresa on January 04, 2021, 06:00:16 PM
Well, every (straight) woman's type anyway.


It was tongue in cheek. He is, though.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: anya on January 06, 2021, 11:09:54 AM
KT could have done a more in depth explanation. Heck, it’s very common for people who had controlling and/or abusive parents to end up with an controlling/ abusive. L partner. Because it’s like ‘going home’ to them. Working through that could have been a better story, but even if she wanted to write something more in depth, would marvel have let her? Their past approach to terrible stories that they want to do a 180 on (*cough* IvX *cough* crazy bishop *cough*) has been a short, hand wavey excuse and move along like nothing happened. We got a bit more than that here but, honestly I didn’t really expect to get much more. Marvel doesn’t like to admit when they were wrong.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on January 17, 2021, 06:13:07 PM
Don't like this conjecture. Back when Rogue was a villain (which was a short run) she was also very young, a teenager, and under the influence of Mystique and the others, she was a pawn. She didn’t just have a change of heart. She sought Xavier and the X-Men for help because she was desperate. After attacking Carol Denvers she was even more out of control than before and being tormented by Denvers. She was being punished and may have realized the gravity of her actions, and feeling guilty. With the X-Men she might've realized that their way was the right way.

I know it’s not exactly a strong argument but the whole Rogueneto fiasco can be explained through awful writing and pathetic self-inserting. The “you were experienced” line in their solo isn’t exactly convincing but better than “she didn’t really like him on her own”.

Saying Rogue wasn’t really in love with Gambit turns their romance into an irrelevant fraud, and this goes against evidence. Despite all the crappy writing we endure Gambit and Rogue have been shown to be compatible before, and when Rogue had her mind clean, such as during X-Men X-treme and around the time of the wedding.

I honestly hate rationalizing bad writing, because it comes down to our doing our utmost to explain what's on paper, cause that's only what matters, while knowing the external reasons for some pretty ridiculous decisions.

Also, Gambit is everyone’s type.


Not really "conjecture". It's not something I believe or push to head canon, like at all. Just thought it'd be an interesting story to explore that would subsequently explain the... Magneto-thing. Personally, I hate plot holes via bad writing and instead of acting like it didn't happen I appreciate when someone explores a concept that to make it work logically.


There's always going to be stories and runs we don't like - but that doesn't mean we can hand wave it... Well, yes we CAN. But that makes us no better than the hacks that choose to ignore a character's lore and history so they can behave in the way they believe they should for a specific treatment. It's exactly how Gambit went from the Rain Cajun to Racky.


Some creators got it stuck in their heads that Gambit from TAS and Gambit from the comics were the same and because they didn't like him in the series they pushed all these horrible tropes that may have worked in the semi-campy show but don't fit in the books which are a lot more ernest and dramatic.


I read the same books as you of course. There's no evidence of my pitch being true - but that Magneto thing is just as or more ridiculous to swallow. I think my idea makes more sense than how Rogue behaved towards Gambit throughout Carey's whole run!  ;D
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: andresa on January 18, 2021, 11:51:54 AM
Don’t see it that way, I don’t think it explains Rogueneto and diminishes Gambit and Rogue’s relationship over the years. We all know that that and so many more “questionable decisions” happened due to bad writing and self-insert with no respect for continuity or previous characterization.

I also like when people try to fill in the gaps, I just don’t like this idea; it doesn’t have a leg to stand on. Rogue retaining Legacy’s memories, wanting to experience, being resentful after the whole Death fiasco or being afraid because she knew Gambit was her endgame are weak reasons for what happened but they make more sense than she only liked him because there was someone else in her head. I loathe the way Gambit has been written for the past fifteen years or so, with very few exceptions, and we know the behind the scenes reasons for his being mistreated. Let’s just agree to disagree on that.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on January 18, 2021, 04:41:06 PM
Oh... Ok... but I don't disagree with you. I think you believe I'm trying to sell you on my idea? I'm not, nor am I defending it. It's baseless. Basically as baseless as the "one-night" thing because of stuff that didn't happen quasi-alternate reality.  ;D
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: andresa on January 18, 2021, 08:15:29 PM
You brought up an idea and I didn't like it, that's all  ;)
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on January 19, 2021, 08:08:11 AM
All in!


Cebulski replied for my tweet that for Nicieza and Skroce reunion for Gambit they would just need to say Yes!


https://twitter.com/CBCebulski/status/1351513994020970499


Who have twitter please support and reply and like that you would love a new Gambit book and Nicieza/Skroce reunion :gambit:
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on January 19, 2021, 10:58:18 AM
That's odd... CB doesn't often give answers like that. Mean it's been brought up. Probably not exactly, but in some incarnation.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on January 19, 2021, 11:00:27 AM
Makes sense. With Si, Gillan, Fabian and the like coming back and the newers like Eve Ewing going out, those horrible ideas in Children of the Atom and New Warriors being pulled back on - I think Marvel is attempting to sell books again.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on January 19, 2021, 11:14:30 AM
That's odd... CB doesn't often give answers like that. Mean it's been brought up. Probably not exactly, but in some incarnation.


I was shocked that he replied too. My guess that maybe they wanted to make Gambit centric issue for X-Men Legends series.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on January 19, 2021, 11:29:07 AM
By all means, if you have a Twitter account you should be commenting, sharing, and liking people! We aren't many here, but one re-tweet is sometimes all you need. This is not the time to sit on our collective butts! We are not Congress... took that from A Different World... because I'm old.


#SaveGambit
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: NicoPony on January 19, 2021, 12:22:29 PM
This is not the time to sit on our collective butts! We are not Congress... took that from A Different World... because I'm old.


#SaveGambit


I feel ya, bro.


And yes, embracing #SaveGambit now. If I weren’t so effing old I would know how Twitter worked by now. God help me, with Snapchat and Tiktok....
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on January 19, 2021, 01:18:41 PM


I feel ya, bro.


And yes, embracing #SaveGambit now. If I weren’t so effing old I would know how Twitter worked by now. God help me, with Snapchat and Tiktok....



...those aren't the same thing?
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: wantutosigh on January 19, 2021, 02:49:29 PM
I would but I'm not on twitter.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on January 19, 2021, 03:55:14 PM

I feel ya, bro.


And yes, embracing #SaveGambit now. If I weren’t so effing old I would know how Twitter worked by now. God help me, with Snapchat and Tiktok....


No, you are better off. Twitter is cancer.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Nekobaghira on January 19, 2021, 06:46:45 PM

No, you are better off. Twitter is cancer.
So is Tumblr. :)
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on January 19, 2021, 11:24:44 PM
So is Tumblr. :)


There's still a Tumblr?!
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: NicoPony on January 20, 2021, 08:50:25 AM

There's still a Tumblr?!


My exposure to Twitter is related to my need to watch Sarah Cooper videos (and couldn't figure out tiktok), at yell at my state representatives. Then I posted a photo of my My Little Pony collection once and got retweeted by a "brony", got freaked out and decided I didn't need that level of weird in my life, I'm weird enough. And tumblr is good for McMansion Hell, which is hilarious. There are diamonds in the rough. I don't know about Snapchat, just think it's a place for dickpics.


Anyway, if FabNic and Scroce teamed up again, would it ever address any of the dropped story threads re: Black Womb, or would it be dictated that he move forward? I think the latter is more likely, but I miss Courier. No botched heists like in Asmus' series, but please can we see Fence again? Owning the Avengers? Helping people on the street?
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on January 20, 2021, 12:54:52 PM

There's still a Tumblr?!


Yeah, next they'll be telling us about MySPace....
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Nekobaghira on January 20, 2021, 03:16:36 PM

Yeah, next they'll be telling us about MySPace....
There is still Facebook to be an butthole at everything, except people think its important. LOL No.

I dislike it all. And its all toxic.

Tumblr is still active and some sort of other stuff. Maybe, I don't know. I can't bother anymore.

Eff tiktok and all its brothers. Enough is enough. I'm done with selfies and videos and all of that jazz. (No offense the music that is actual Jazz. - that is actually good.)

back on track - is Excalibur still published by a hack who knows nothing of Gambit?

Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on January 21, 2021, 08:57:48 AM
Gambit did nothing important so far. Excalibur is solicated till April 2021 and probably will continue.
Nothing rumored or hinted for Gambit. Nothing to talk about.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on January 21, 2021, 09:39:17 AM

My exposure to Twitter is related to my need to watch Sarah Cooper videos (and couldn't figure out tiktok), at yell at my state representatives. Then I posted a photo of my My Little Pony collection once and got retweeted by a "brony", got freaked out and decided I didn't need that level of weird in my life, I'm weird enough. And tumblr is good for McMansion Hell, which is hilarious. There are diamonds in the rough. I don't know about Snapchat, just think it's a place for dickpics.


Anyway, if FabNic and Scroce teamed up again, would it ever address any of the dropped story threads re: Black Womb, or would it be dictated that he move forward? I think the latter is more likely, but I miss Courier. No botched heists like in Asmus' series, but please can we see Fence again? Owning the Avengers? Helping people on the street?


Oh, I'd love a Gambit "crew" of Fence and Courier! Especially in a Burn Notice type of deal. Not general "super hero" fair (though it of course would be) but like the show "I have a friend, that was a problem Rem'". Then we get to watch Gambit and co. run jobs against King Pin, Tombstone, remnants of the NYC assassin's guild, running a job for Pete Wisdom, etc. while also dealing with Guild matters and the usual X-Men spillover crises'.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on January 21, 2021, 09:49:11 AM
Purp! How much for a piece like this?! LOL


(https://img.playbuzz.com/image/upload/ar_1.5,c_pad,f_jpg,b_auto/q_auto:good,f_auto,fl_lossy,w_480,c_limit,dpr_2.5/cdn/e5d05c69-1a59-44e2-87fc-58632318f403/2eaaae53-c00b-482a-8442-460d2be8c645_560_420.jpg)
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on January 21, 2021, 10:17:36 AM

Oh, I'd love a Gambit "crew" of Fence and Courier! Especially in a Burn Notice type of deal. Not general "super hero" fair (though it of course would be) but like the show "I have a friend, that was a problem Rem'". Then we get to watch Gambit and co. run jobs against King Pin, Tombstone, remnants of the NYC assassin's guild, running a job for Pete Wisdom, etc. while also dealing with Guild matters and the usual X-Men spillover crises'.


Maybe I am unrealistic and hope for too much, but I'd love a comic where a A lister like Spider-man or the Avengers come to Gambit to break into an A-list villains base and steal something. Imagine Gambit invading Norman Osborne's company or even Doctor Doom's stronghold.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on January 21, 2021, 10:39:51 AM
Purp! How much for a piece like this?! LOL


(https://img.playbuzz.com/image/upload/ar_1.5,c_pad,f_jpg,b_auto/q_auto:good,f_auto,fl_lossy,w_480,c_limit,dpr_2.5/cdn/e5d05c69-1a59-44e2-87fc-58632318f403/2eaaae53-c00b-482a-8442-460d2be8c645_560_420.jpg)


Mocked up a the title for them to step over  ;D
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on January 21, 2021, 10:50:28 AM

Maybe I am unrealistic and hope for too much, but I'd love a comic where a A lister like Spider-man or the Avengers come to Gambit to break into an A-list villains base and steal something. Imagine Gambit invading Norman Osborne's company or even Doctor Doom's stronghold.


I'd love that too - if the rest of the world was making nice with Krakoa! But I think that'd make sense. In the pantheon of professional *ahem* acquisitions - would these hero types trust Black Cat or Gambit? Gambit would do it for fun - not profit. Felicia would disappear with whatever they sent her for lol.


To stay within continuity - if the X-Men are really doing this "mutant-first" agenda - send Gambit in to steal something from Osborn, Doom, or hey, The Avengers mansion or Stark.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on January 22, 2021, 02:16:56 PM

I'd love that too - if the rest of the world was making nice with Krakoa! But I think that'd make sense. In the pantheon of professional *ahem* acquisitions - would these hero types trust Black Cat or Gambit? Gambit would do it for fun - not profit. Felicia would disappear with whatever they sent her for lol.


To stay within continuity - if the X-Men are really doing this "mutant-first" agenda - send Gambit in to steal something from Osborn, Doom, or hey, The Avengers mansion or Stark.


I'd love Gambit getting the better of Stark.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on January 22, 2021, 04:00:55 PM

Oh, I'd love a Gambit "crew" of Fence and Courier! Especially in a Burn Notice type of deal. Not general "super hero" fair (though it of course would be) but like the show "I have a friend, that was a problem Rem'". Then we get to watch Gambit and co. run jobs against King Pin, Tombstone, remnants of the NYC assassin's guild, running a job for Pete Wisdom, etc. while also dealing with Guild matters and the usual X-Men spillover crises'.


That is why I loved Channing script so much. It had everything: solo adventures, team work, work forhire, love interest team up with great action. Everything were smart and with style.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on January 22, 2021, 05:26:13 PM
Purp! How much for a piece like this?! LOL


(https://img.playbuzz.com/image/upload/ar_1.5,c_pad,f_jpg,b_auto/q_auto:good,f_auto,fl_lossy,w_480,c_limit,dpr_2.5/cdn/e5d05c69-1a59-44e2-87fc-58632318f403/2eaaae53-c00b-482a-8442-460d2be8c645_560_420.jpg)


Cool! If only we had good X editors again.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Icefanatic on January 23, 2021, 05:22:44 PM

Oh, I'd love a Gambit "crew" of Fence and Courier! Especially in a Burn Notice type of deal. Not general "super hero" fair (though it of course would be) but like the show "I have a friend, that was a problem Rem'". Then we get to watch Gambit and co. run jobs against King Pin, Tombstone, remnants of the NYC assassin's guild, running a job for Pete Wisdom, etc. while also dealing with Guild matters and the usual X-Men spillover crises'.

Great idea!

Sounds a bit like Leverage, too. Damn, I miss both those shows.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on January 23, 2021, 10:14:54 PM
So, good people - who are we adding to the crew? How about we keep it to what were seeing on the graphic? 5 including Gambit and a series regular, so 3 main characters besides Gambit, and one regular guest spot.


Curious to see what you guys got... I mean c'mon, we don't have anything else going for us.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on January 23, 2021, 10:47:18 PM
Think I'll go with...
Gambit
Courier (still as Jackie)
Fence
Hellion
w/ Cecelia as the recurring character. I think it allows the story to get messier knowing the book can fall back on someone to patch them up. Could be a running gag for them to end or start out in the Healing Grotto.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: NicoPony on January 25, 2021, 12:50:36 PM
Think I'll go with...
Gambit
Courier (still as Jackie)
Fence
Hellion
w/ Cecelia as the recurring character. I think it allows the story to get messier knowing the book can fall back on someone to patch them up. Could be a running gag for them to end or start out in the Healing Grotto.


I like your team. I don't know who Hellion is really, but a low-level telepath is a good fit. I think I'd switch him out for another female, someone with a more street level fighting style. I just don't know who! Someone else sneaky - can we get 1990s era Psylocke back? Hell, we've got two variations already, why not time-travel Betsy? In lieu of a telepath, how about Lila Cheney? Need a mode of transportation, right? Or...Spiral. She can get them places and have magic. No wait, Fatale. That's random. But she's an assassin, sneaky, and can teleport. Okay, I'm going to Fatale. Final Answer.




I wonder about  Jackie/Jake. The character might be kryptonite now. The original plotline was partly handled for comedic effect. Now that there's a more open discussion about gender versus sex, I would hope they would handle it more appropriately. Just because Jake was stuck in a woman's body wouldn't change who he was internally, he's still a man. Unless Jake secretly felt he was a woman and liked Gambit in that way and it was his subconscious that made him into a woman? I'll just assume it was okay, since Jackie didn't get too upset about Gambit kissing him/her. But of course, you have to take it in the context and the time at which it was written. It would just have to handled a lot differently now if Jake's ever going to come back. If Marvel did actually care about representation and social issues, maybe they wouldn't just white wash characters and make them PC (or give them new powers or personalities) overnight and instead...I don't know - DEVELOP them? But that would actually take someone who could write worth a damn.



Gambit
Courier
Fence
Fatale
Cecelia
Danger (she and Fence can make electronic eyes at each other)

Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on January 25, 2021, 04:53:29 PM
Cool ideas.


My team:


Gambit :gambit:
Bella
Fence
Nil the Technomancer
Zoe Ishihara from the Tokyo Thieves Guild


I think this team would have a cool dynamic.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: NicoPony on January 25, 2021, 05:14:58 PM
Cool ideas.


My team:


Gambit :gambit:
Bella
Fence
Nil the Technomancer
Zoe Ishihara from the Tokyo Thieves Guild


I think this team would have a cool dynamic.


Zoe would be sweet! And Nil a good foil.


There’s always room for more Belle in my life.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: purplevit on January 25, 2021, 05:17:31 PM

Zoe would be sweet! And Nil a good foil.


There’s always room for more Belle in my life.


Me too. I think this team has a lot of strong charactets that would provide explosive dynamic and different motives.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: Toadman005 on January 26, 2021, 11:24:26 AM
Gonna go a bit odd here....


Gambit (obviously)
Bishop
Black Cat
Marrow
Laura


Would love to have more Gambit and Bishop be "buddy cop" types, with Bishop annoyed with Remy, Remy's laid back aloofness clashing with Bishop's seriousness.
Black Cat obviously for flirtatious will they/won't they sex appeal (I mean, assuming he and Rogue ever divorce which, lets face it, given it's Marvel, that's inevitable),
and Marrow and Laura given he kinda tutored both in a sense, and I'd love them to be sorta semi jealous of one another, and rivals. Could make for a wacky dynamic.



Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on January 26, 2021, 05:17:50 PM

I like your team. I don't know who Hellion is really, but a low-level telepath is a good fit. I think I'd switch him out for another female, someone with a more street level fighting style. I just don't know who! Someone else sneaky - can we get 1990s era Psylocke back? Hell, we've got two variations already, why not time-travel Betsy? In lieu of a telepath, how about Lila Cheney? Need a mode of transportation, right? Or...Spiral. She can get them places and have magic. No wait, Fatale. That's random. But she's an assassin, sneaky, and can teleport. Okay, I'm going to Fatale. Final Answer.




I wonder about  Jackie/Jake. The character might be kryptonite now. The original plotline was partly handled for comedic effect. Now that there's a more open discussion about gender versus sex, I would hope they would handle it more appropriately. Just because Jake was stuck in a woman's body wouldn't change who he was internally, he's still a man. Unless Jake secretly felt he was a woman and liked Gambit in that way and it was his subconscious that made him into a woman? I'll just assume it was okay, since Jackie didn't get too upset about Gambit kissing him/her. But of course, you have to take it in the context and the time at which it was written. It would just have to handled a lot differently now if Jake's ever going to come back. If Marvel did actually care about representation and social issues, maybe they wouldn't just white wash characters and make them PC (or give them new powers or personalities) overnight and instead...I don't know - DEVELOP them? But that would actually take someone who could write worth a damn.



Gambit
Courier
Fence
Fatale
Cecelia
Danger (she and Fence can make electronic eyes at each other)


I originally thought about using Gabby but she's been written with such a cutey role I didn't want to bother. Also Jake is a metamorph not shapeshifter. What he turns into, he is inside and out. So much so, Sinister didn't even know the difference when he broke his DNA down to bits and analyzed it. Which is why when he reverted him to solid, it was to a woman because that how he found him. It's was pretty funny because Sinister had this "oh well" type of air about him.


It doesn't mean Jake can't turn into a man or even his old self. It just means his base form is a woman. Any other form would be him forcing his body to change.


Oh and Hellion is a newer character from New X-Men / Academy X. He's a high level telekinetic skilled enough to reassemble matter at the molecular level. He is Laura's ex that thinks Gambit is cool but more over got checked by him while he was dating Laura. He's an upstart I could see getting a kick out of running around Gambits underworld.


Psylocke (Qwannon) leads the Hellions under Sinister. Lila Cheney is part of SWORD and I don't think her powers work on a single planet. If I understand her powers correctly it has to be a great distance, like between planets. I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: NicoPony on January 26, 2021, 07:22:14 PM

I originally thought about using Gabby but she's been written with such a cutey role I didn't want to bother. Also Jake is a metamorph not shapeshifter. What he turns into, he is inside and out. So much so, Sinister didn't even know the difference when he broke his DNA down to bits and analyzed it. Which is why when he reverted him to solid, it was to a woman because that how he found him. It's was pretty funny because Sinister had this "oh well" type of air about him.


It doesn't mean Jake can't turn into a man or even his old self. It just means his base form is a woman. Any other form would be him forcing his body to change.


Oh and Hellion is a newer character from New X-Men / Academy X. He's a high level telekinetic skilled enough to reassemble matter at the molecular level. He is Laura's ex that thinks Gambit is cool but more over got checked by him while he was dating Laura. He's an upstart I could see getting a kick out of running around Gambits underworld.


Psylocke (Qwannon) leads the Hellions under Sinister. Lila Cheney is part of SWORD and I don't think her powers work on a single planet. If I understand her powers correctly it has to be a great distance, like between planets. I could be wrong.


Picture of me trying to understand the X-books anymore:



(http://www.livememe.com/tys7xr5.jpg)


I knew he could change back to a dude, but I didn’t understand the metamorph thing. Thanks for clarification. In light of Sinister’s new weirder persona, I feel like it’s worth it to go back and review his past appearances and read them in this new voice. That guy cracks me up.



Title: Re: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?
Post by: DonPriceTag on January 27, 2021, 11:02:02 AM
Shapeshiftera simply ape the appearance of others and objects. Just because Mystique turns into a brick wall or Wolverine, it doesn't mean shr has any of their aspects. It's literally skin deep. Only surface appearances. Metamorph are different.


I don't know if Jake can turn into inanimate objects but when he turns himself a person, he may not have their distinct DNA but his body changes down to the bone. Apparently even his chromosomes change as, again, Sinister didn't know he was originally a man.


Another difference between shapeshifters and metamorphs is the time it takes to change. Shapeshifters change instantly while metamorphosis can take hours to complete and I think can involve a degree of discomfort.


So, basically "Jake" is biologically a woman, through and through. The only thing male about him is his mind - what's left of that after having to deal with the changes in his hormonal make-up.