Author Topic: Asmus' Gambit run in retrospect  (Read 5122 times)

Offline Nekobaghira

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Re: Asmus' Gambit run in retrospect
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2017, 04:35:28 PM »
IMO - done right is very important. And I don't think that is possible with only 20 pages dedicated to story telling. Certainly not in a "main" book as it were. The solo would be the only place and it would need more than one issue.

Iceman's coming out was done in FOUR pages. That is it, and horribly written, done between two books that were published months apart. That is two pages per book (it really was two per) and it wasn't even Iceman stating anything, it was forced by Jean Grey who didn't respect his privacy. (Privacy issues aside ... we're not even getting into the "joke - Iceman is gay" thread on CBR, that spurred a writer for the character change).

Iceman's own solo didn't even address his sexuality in any meaningful way. It just rolled on with his status quo and dealt with his "dating".  Not sure where the book is now, I dropped it. I'll have to count on others to fill me in more on the book. Edit: the book does or did have the opportunity with his parents, whether dealt with or not. I don't know.

I'm uncertain what benefit the LGBT+ would get from a story of Gambit being bi, his reputation alone would contribute to a stereotype. Even as the hardcore fan can debate his rep, he still has it and may not lend itself in a positive way. IMO.

In the end, doing something for the sake of it, or to get publicity doesn't always benefit the group intended to be represented.
 
addition:
Not saying a good story wouldn't be possible or done well or any of that - I suppose its my lack of faith in the writing abilities of those who work for Marvel or DC that makes me doubt.

edited to original quote
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 06:54:17 PM by Nekobaghira »

Offline bark_no_byte

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Re: Asmus' Gambit run in retrospect
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2017, 05:40:27 PM »
IMO - done right is very important. And I don't think that is possible with only 20 pages dedicated to story telling. Certainly not in a "main" book as it were. The solo would be the only place and it would need more than one issue.

Iceman's coming out was done in FOUR pages. That is it, and horribly written, done between two books that were published months apart. That is two pages per book (it really was two per) and it wasn't even Iceman stating anything, it was forced by Jean Grey who didn't respect his privacy. (Privacy issues aside ... we're not even getting into the "joke - Iceman is gay" thread on CBR, that spurred a writer for the character change).

Iceman's own solo didn't even address his sexuality in any meaningful way. It just rolled on with his status quo and dealt with his "dating".  Not sure where the book is now, I dropped it. I'll have to count on others to fill me in more on the book. Edit: the book does or did have the opportunity with his parents, whether dealt with or not. I don't know.

I'm uncertain what benefit the LGBT+ would get from a story of Gambit being bi, his reputation alone would contribute to a stereotype. Even as the hardcore fan can debate his rep, he still has it and may not lend itself in a positive way. IMO.

In the end, doing something for the sake of it, or to get publicity doesn't always benefit the group intended to be represented.


You make some really good points and obviously I have the unpopular opinion in this thread, so I'm not going to try and change anyone's opinion on this by debating further. This is just my take on it: I'm not trying to cry "Representation", but I often either see Bi characters either represented as villains (like Daken or Mystique) or "confused". Would I, someone who identifies as Bi, have liked to see Gambit, a (relatively) good guy who is also comfortable in his sexuality, portrayed as Bi? Yes, but only if it was A.) Done right and B.) not done as a publicity stunt (both of which has been said). In the end, that's just my take on it and it's a game of "what ifs" - we can't really know what would have happened. Either way, it's not something that makes or breaks the character for me.


Anyways, sorry for hijacking the thread. Not trying to turn this into a platform.

Offline Nekobaghira

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Re: Asmus' Gambit run in retrospect
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2017, 07:15:28 PM »
 
You make some really good points and obviously I have the unpopular opinion in this thread, so I'm not going to try and change anyone's opinion on this by debating further. This is just my take on it: I'm not trying to cry "Representation", but I often either see Bi characters either represented as villains (like Daken or Mystique) or "confused". Would I, someone who identifies as Bi, have liked to see Gambit, a (relatively) good guy who is also comfortable in his sexuality, portrayed as Bi? Yes, but only if it was A.) Done right and B.) not done as a publicity stunt (both of which has been said). In the end, that's just my take on it and it's a game of "what ifs" - we can't really know what would have happened. Either way, it's not something that makes or breaks the character for me.


Anyways, sorry for hijacking the thread. Not trying to turn this into a platform.

You are fine. All opinions are just that, opinions. The fact we can discuss these topics is very good. My opinion is just that, an opinion.

I'm not trying to change opinion either. Recently I've seen a TV show handle gay and bi characters with more content and in positive light (heroic personas)- when I compare this show to how Iceman was handled, there is a difference.

You are right, there is nothing wrong with wanting a hero/anti-hero as a good representative. They should not be villains only.

We already agree; A) being done right, and B) not as a publicity stunt -  is key.

It is a game of “what ifs”, and it doesn't make or break the character for me either.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 11:02:21 PM by Nekobaghira »

Offline Nekobaghira

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Re: Asmus' Gambit run in retrospect
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2017, 11:51:37 AM »
Since we've officially killed this thread.

While I wasn't bothered by Joelle, I think Gambit falling for her so quickly was not a good idea. I did like her character.

Offline DonPriceTag

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Re: Asmus' Gambit run in retrospect
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2017, 12:46:37 PM »

Respectfully disagree. Just because it opens ridicule from trolls doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. Trolls will be trolls - just ignore them. Also, are you saying Gambit being bi would be a stereotype? How so?


Forgot I even posted here... No, Gambit is not the stereotype... that makes no sense. He's known for wearing lots of pink and lighter colors most would consider effeminate. If you recall his earlier days of him going out he's into fashion. It's just something haters have clung onto for ages. Makes him an easier target. To be honest, I'm not really into the idea but it actually makes more sense than Iceman from a characterization standpoint anyway. As for your opinion not being "popular"... who cares? Its your opinion and your entitled to it as long as it doesn't turn into an ugly wall of word... which hardly happens here lol. I don't think Gambit's sexuality is a "hot button" topic around here. Here are a couple; "Gambit has charm powers", "Gambit and Rogue are made for each other, and each other only". Those two things will start some ish. This? This is just discussion.
 

Rogue being flung vagina-first at the first male that pops up on her radar isn't how I'd define "romance," but Marvel must be using a different dictionary than me.- NicoPony

Offline DonPriceTag

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Re: Asmus' Gambit run in retrospect
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2017, 12:52:52 PM »
Since we've officially killed this thread.

While I wasn't bothered by Joelle, I think Gambit falling for her so quickly was not a good idea. I did like her character.


I liked Joelle too. Very tragic character with a tragic background that I didn't see coming. I wonder... If Asmus had gotten the freedom and the book had gotten to move past 17 (as it should have been) and to use Black Cat, would Felicia have been his rebound? How I see it, Gambit was about to embrace his position as the head of the ITG. Which I think Asmus would have eventually had the cardinals attempt to bring a large chunk of high-level theft under one roof. Of course there would be hold outs, for instance Black Cat. Gambit, having history with her, I could see having the Cardinals back off of her and give him a chance to talk to her and bring her into the fold, or at least attempt to. I don't know... something about two anti-heroes probably coming to blows and then uh... something else, seems pretty hot.
Rogue being flung vagina-first at the first male that pops up on her radar isn't how I'd define "romance," but Marvel must be using a different dictionary than me.- NicoPony

Offline bark_no_byte

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Re: Asmus' Gambit run in retrospect
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2017, 02:17:54 PM »

Forgot I even posted here... No, Gambit is not the stereotype... that makes no sense. He's known for wearing lots of pink and lighter colors most would consider effeminate. If you recall his earlier days of him going out he's into fashion. It's just something haters have clung onto for ages. Makes him an easier target. To be honest, I'm not really into the idea but it actually makes more sense than Iceman from a characterization standpoint anyway. As for your opinion not being "popular"... who cares? Its your opinion and your entitled to it as long as it doesn't turn into an ugly wall of word... which hardly happens here lol. I don't think Gambit's sexuality is a "hot button" topic around here. Here are a couple; "Gambit has charm powers", "Gambit and Rogue are made for each other, and each other only". Those two things will start some ish. This? This is just discussion.


Ah, I see what you're saying now. Thanks for clarifying!

Offline Nekobaghira

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Re: Asmus' Gambit run in retrospect
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2017, 03:06:57 PM »

I liked Joelle too. Very tragic character with a tragic background that I didn't see coming. I wonder... If Asmus had gotten the freedom and the book had gotten to move past 17 (as it should have been) and to use Black Cat, would Felicia have been his rebound? How I see it, Gambit was about to embrace his position as the head of the ITG. Which I think Asmus would have eventually had the cardinals attempt to bring a large chunk of high-level theft under one roof. Of course there would be hold outs, for instance Black Cat. Gambit, having history with her, I could see having the Cardinals back off of her and give him a chance to talk to her and bring her into the fold, or at least attempt to. I don't know... something about two anti-heroes probably coming to blows and then uh... something else, seems pretty hot.

Missed opportunity via Marvel Editorial. I think Black Cat would have been great for the Gambit solo, in all aspects you've described. Great rebound character, good character to play off of, especially with the trying to "out do" each other aspect.

Asmus set villains well, other than expanding, based on his ideas BC and G would been fun.

I liked Joelle because she was a challenge for Gambit and Black Cat would have been that as well. :)

Offline DonPriceTag

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Re: Asmus' Gambit run in retrospect
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2017, 03:28:30 PM »
I think editorial should listen to their creators. Even Fabian wanted Gambit to operate more outside of the X-Men, and it showed in his #24 issue series. Gambit was all over the place. Asmus seemed to be of a similar mind, whether it was impressed upon him or not. My wet dream for the evolution of Asmus' story was for Gambit to form an inner-circle of anti-heroes within the ITG, because there's no way he'd be able to trust the Cardinals. If Asmus was given the opportunity to pull freely from the Marvel Universe? He said he wanted Gambit to basically become a loan-shark for villains where he lends them money but then repo's their stuff. Because it'd be a book about him, we couldn't just say the Guild members are taking care of it off panel, Gambit would most likely head up the initiative himself forming a motley that would ultimately end up being title regulars; off the top of my head, I'd like to have seen Black Cat, Frenzy and Courier w/ Fence playing backup-. I think Gambit surrounding himself with femme-fatale types makes sense to me. Some might ask "why?" but I'd counter with "why not?" Gambit's not a teenager and I think he could see the upside in such a team. Idealy I'd love to see Pete Wisdom come aboard, possibly in bad standings with the intelligence community and out of work (Burn Notice style lol), somewhat forced to work with Gambit until he can get his life back together. I guess I'm thinking too much into it, but using characters like this that don't get much or any run elsewhere would lend a large of freedom for storytelling.
Rogue being flung vagina-first at the first male that pops up on her radar isn't how I'd define "romance," but Marvel must be using a different dictionary than me.- NicoPony

Offline Nekobaghira

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Re: Asmus' Gambit run in retrospect
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2017, 03:30:42 PM »
As for your opinion not being "popular"... who cares? Its your opinion and your entitled to it as long as it doesn't turn into an ugly wall of word... which hardly happens here lol. I don't think Gambit's sexuality is a "hot button" topic around here. Here are a couple; "Gambit has charm powers", "Gambit and Rogue are made for each other, and each other only". Those two things will start some ish. This? This is just discussion.

I can't let it go, its too funny to me. I've composed a few times and told myself, no, let it go. Probably because of being "blindsided" - no red or blue anything!
 :2funny:
On a more serious note, remember that those here do not necessarily travel in all the same internet circles.  And I'm not making fun of anyone or making light of anything, I'm teasing Don. Please take it for what it actual is ....  ;)

Offline DonPriceTag

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Re: Asmus' Gambit run in retrospect
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2017, 03:41:40 PM »
I can't let it go, its too funny to me. I've composed a few times and told myself, no, let it go. Probably because of being "blindsided" - no red or blue anything!
 :2funny:
On a more serious note, remember that those here do not necessarily travel in all the same internet circles.  And I'm not making fun of anyone or making light of anything, I'm teasing Don. Please take it for what it actual is ....  ;)


Man, that caught me completely off-guard!  ;D
Rogue being flung vagina-first at the first male that pops up on her radar isn't how I'd define "romance," but Marvel must be using a different dictionary than me.- NicoPony

Offline Nekobaghira

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Re: Asmus' Gambit run in retrospect
« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2017, 04:37:37 PM »
Man, that caught me completely off-guard!  ;D

Not just you.  ;D

Moving thread forward:

I think it was great they kept the book on time but I also think Mann's art was very good for the book. I think it did hurt a little from having several artists.

You don't realize how much art helps until you can't understand what is going on, and that is on the artist too. They've got to help tell the tale.

There have been many times when art has hurt more than helped and other times when art has helped more than the narrative. I think that is what is so unique about comic books.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 04:43:37 PM by Nekobaghira »

Offline bark_no_byte

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Re: Asmus' Gambit run in retrospect
« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2017, 05:23:10 PM »

 :2funny:
On a more serious note, remember that those here do not necessarily travel in all the same internet circles.


Thank god for that haha I like this place as an escape from the typical sites to discuss comics

Offline Nekobaghira

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Re: Asmus' Gambit run in retrospect
« Reply #43 on: November 07, 2017, 06:57:35 PM »

Thank god for that haha I like this place as an escape from the typical sites to discuss comics

Me too. :)

Offline DonPriceTag

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Are Gambit Issues 1-4, definitive?
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2018, 04:39:11 PM »
I pulled out my old Gambit issues again and read through the first arc in a sitting. I respect and love Fabian's run, but I have to ask... Is Asmus/ Mann first arc of their Gambit run the definitive Gambit? I mean that book had everything a Gambit fan could ask for. He was sleek, resourceful, funny, competent, expertly drawn. If I had to submit an arc to someone to introduce them to Gambit I think these four issues would be the best example of the character.
Rogue being flung vagina-first at the first male that pops up on her radar isn't how I'd define "romance," but Marvel must be using a different dictionary than me.- NicoPony