Author Topic: Marvel and DC - Diversity?  (Read 2340 times)

Offline Nekobaghira

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Marvel and DC - Diversity?
« on: May 23, 2017, 08:15:28 PM »
I thought this might be interesting to talk about .... It's a 2:22 clip from the Ben Shapiro show about comic books and SJW's.

I think he makes some good points.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWWREYcmjqI
this clip was posted on May 3rd 2017

I don't really care about the propaganda part of this clip. But what he does nail is the changing of characters or making changes to staples for no reason other than trying to diversify.

This goes back to actually creating characters for the diversity instead of changing existing ones.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 08:26:28 PM by Nekobaghira »

Offline DonPriceTag

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Re: Marvel and DC - Diversity?
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2017, 08:32:57 AM »
Second time in my life and in as many months that I find myself agreeing with this stranger. Marvel's marketing/PR just doesn't get it. They can't stand to admit that their "ideas" were bad and out of touch. Instead of retracting bad moves, they blame slumping sales on us and our "inability to accept diversity". I'm a black man of Jamaican descent. I grew up in a community of people (South Florida), that for the most part, look like me. If I can say, I'm not feeling this Riri Williams-thing or not gravitating towards Sam Wilson as Cap or that I found the title "Black Panther and the Crew" jarring, that doesn't mean, I don't want diversity. On the other hand, I LOVE The Ultimates. You can't get any more diverse than that, I even put up with them inexplicably forcing Ms. America (female, gay and a minority, yeah I get it, Marvel, dang) up to the front as the team leader. Am I still like WTH?

If Marvel had done their footwork and developed characters to fill the pretend spots (they didn't really need to be filled IMO), they wouldn't be having this backlash. They killed off War Machine, ok, fine. Riri could have easily stepped in as Tony's new protege. Perhaps they were afraid of some non-comic book reading feminist losing their @#@$ over that and figured they'd get more traction by making her Iron Man instead. The only organic passing of power we've seen thus far is Thor, partly because Aaron is writing it so well. As long as that was going to be an Arc, it would have been fine, but it's looking more and more permanent every day, even with "Legacy", another friggin forced crossover, following a planned, unnecessary crossover, looming. I've said it before, outside of one friend, I'm the only comic book reading person in my circle, and even he said: "I'm not feeling this whole 'diversity thing'". That's two black men, right there not onboard with the gender-bending, race changing, turning character names in mantles -thing.

The only "mantle" change that worked for me is Ms. Marvel, and that's because Carol Danvers vacated the name to take on one that Marketing thought was more "commanding" and "empowering" because I guess "Ms" isn't related enough for potential male fans that may see the movie. Not to mention for conducive to the feminist movement Marvel is so desperately trying to endear to these days. Just FYI that is the reason they changed it. During the time they changed the name, Ike Pearlmutter was still in charge of the MCU. If they were going to make a movie, he and/or his team of consultants (the same ones that didn't like pushing females in the movies because boys don't buy female action figures, its also why we only had Black Widow as a woman Avenger for so long) decided that the name was too demure to appeal to men. Kevin Feige wanted to premier Carol Danvers a long while ago but he got pushback from Ike's office. Long story, short, Marvel is out of touch. They went from barely surviving to Hollywood juggernaut in the matter of a decade. Their ranks are filled with people too afraid of the people above them to question a move, much less a mandate. Too many people making too much money to want to rock the boat. So when a bad idea comes down, it's spun as gold. No way similar to our current government.  :P
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 08:36:44 AM by DonPriceTag »
Rogue being flung vagina-first at the first male that pops up on her radar isn't how I'd define "romance," but Marvel must be using a different dictionary than me.- NicoPony

Offline DonPriceTag

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Re: Marvel and DC - Diversity?
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2017, 08:42:14 AM »
Seriously, I would have loved for Riri Williams (names kind of on the nose... kinda hate it) to have been the new War Machine (or maybe War Angel or something, I don't know, she's friggin 15 years old) instead of Iron Man. Rhodie always complained about not having the same level of tech Tony did. This would have been a great opportunity to have Riri create her own armor that in some ways was superior to Tony's and then make her real badass to boot. Like one of those berserkers we see in Anime series'. Just off the wall, super aggressive butt kicker. More than War Machine ever was and bigger immediate threat than any Iron Man armor outside of the Hulk Buster. How many times do we see a sidekick that's in many's better than the main hero? Then have her join the Champions or something. That's more interesting IMO.
Rogue being flung vagina-first at the first male that pops up on her radar isn't how I'd define "romance," but Marvel must be using a different dictionary than me.- NicoPony

Offline Sheba

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Re: Marvel and DC - Diversity?
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2017, 12:59:20 PM »
I'm kinda automatically leery of anyone who uses the phrase 'SJWs' in trying to advocate for less diversity, to be honest. YMMV, but it's been my experience that people who talk like that almost always do it from a place of racism, transphobia, homophobia, misogyny, or all of the above. Not to mention the term itself is so vastly overused that it's become as meaningless as 'hipster' or 'millennial'----just a code for 'I think I'm better than you and am going to mistreat you because of it'.

Anyhoo. Yeah, diversity in comics. We agree that's a good thing, right?

Offline Spoonz

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Re: Marvel and DC - Diversity?
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2017, 02:16:34 PM »
Diversity in comics is good yes, diversity in anything is good. I think what Marvel is doing wrong though is just trying to tick diversity boxes without putting thought into it. They're just taking established characters and making them 'diverse for diversity's sake', which makes it seem forced rather than organic storytelling.

People don't want more ethnic characters to replace the current characters but rather to go with them. 

The term SJW is I think referring to people who look for sexism and racism etc under every rock and stone and sadly it's a term used for sensible people who simply advocate for sensible levels of equality.

Online Dantay

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Re: Marvel and DC - Diversity?
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2017, 02:48:10 PM »
Seriously, I would have loved for Riri Williams (names kind of on the nose... kinda hate it) to have been the new War Machine (or maybe War Angel or something, I don't know, she's friggin 15 years old) instead of Iron Man. Rhodie always complained about not having the same level of tech Tony did. This would have been a great opportunity to have Riri create her own armor that in some ways was superior to Tony's and then make her real badass to boot. Like one of those berserkers we see in Anime series'. Just off the wall, super aggressive butt kicker. More than War Machine ever was and bigger immediate threat than any Iron Man armor outside of the Hulk Buster. How many times do we see a sidekick that's in many's better than the main hero? Then have her join the Champions or something. That's more interesting IMO.

Riri isnt called Ironman though, as far as i can remember, i like the diversity when they create new characters, e.g Miss Marvel, or even having Amunds Cho becoming Hulk instead of changing the ethnicity of existing characters

Offline Nekobaghira

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Re: Marvel and DC - Diversity?
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2017, 03:13:31 PM »
As I said when I started the thread. The propaganda isn't the important part of the story or the SJW's. I understand if its bothersome, I'm trying to steer a little. :)

This guy managed to get a sales person at Marvel talk about slumping sales because the diversification of characters isn't hitting market gold. And pointing out the changes Marvel has made and not be able to make the make money via those changes does say something.

The way Marvel is going about diversity is the issue ... not the idea of it. Understand its not the idea ... its the execution.

We didn't need female Thor ... You've got Lady Sif! (I can't even believe I'm pointing her out. LOL) Point is, you've got an established strong female character in the Thor World and the answer was to make Jane - Thor? Use Thor as a prop up to build if that is what's needed. Or ... You want a female Thor .... then keep Thor and find a way to make another hammer wield-able by a woman.

Now - Miles Morales ... I think he's doing well and is adding to diversification because ... Peter Parker never went away. Peter was not changed to have a second Spider-Man. There are now two Spider-Man's ... and people are liking it ....  Maybe that is the approach that should be taken.

I think that if the initiative was to be diverse ... then spend the time with those characters that already fit the bill and build them or create them. It's not like they don't have a whole roster of characters, its a matter of marketing. :)
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 03:42:31 PM by Nekobaghira »

Offline Sheba

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Re: Marvel and DC - Diversity?
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2017, 04:01:07 PM »
What are you calling propaganda though? Not trying to start anything; I'm just honestly curious. I'm less-inclined to listen to him or believe anything he says because of his use of that term, is what I'm trying to indicate. (Lol, he's like the anti-Gambit in that way!)

But yeah. Marvel is bad at diversity but I honestly kind of feel like they do it that way on purpose. Then when Lady Thor (or black Spiderman, or whatever) books don't sell they can say, 'See?! Clearly no one wants more diversity; better stick to what we've always done!'

Offline Nekobaghira

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Re: Marvel and DC - Diversity?
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2017, 04:50:20 PM »
He's a grumpy guy in general, I usually tune him out. So, its hard to explain. You'll have to give me a few days and I'd have to listen to the clip a few times to remind myself of the parts my ears tune out. LOL. I'll have an answer eventually. :)

I think Marvel has tons of diversity characters ... they don't capsulize on it in the way you'd think they should be able to being a publishing company.

I remember one of their female editors actually saying, that if fans didn't support female lead books that they wouldn't produce them anymore. It was after their horrible rendition of CrossGen's Mystic was released and nobody bought it. Maybe its that mentality that needs to change in their company.

Offline DonPriceTag

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Re: Marvel and DC - Diversity?
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2017, 07:49:33 PM »
Riri isnt called Ironman though, as far as i can remember, i like the diversity when they create new characters, e.g Miss Marvel, or even having Amunds Cho becoming Hulk instead of changing the ethnicity of existing characters

Yes I know. She's Iron Heart. Not my point. Same dang colors. She and Doom for some reason are Iron Man
Rogue being flung vagina-first at the first male that pops up on her radar isn't how I'd define "romance," but Marvel must be using a different dictionary than me.- NicoPony

Online Dantay

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Re: Marvel and DC - Diversity?
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2017, 05:47:17 AM »
Yes I know. She's Iron Heart. Not my point. Same dang colors. She and Doom for some reason are Iron Man

Because Tony is in a coma  :P

Offline DonPriceTag

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Re: Marvel and DC - Diversity?
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2017, 08:24:29 AM »
I'm aware. I call it a plot coma.

Here's another view of the topic, with less constipation voice.

https://youtu.be/QKFG0OHw1FU

Starts out pretty logical but the commenter falls into a dark place of rage and disgust. Probably not the best way to get his point across.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 05:04:18 PM by DonPriceTag »
Rogue being flung vagina-first at the first male that pops up on her radar isn't how I'd define "romance," but Marvel must be using a different dictionary than me.- NicoPony

Online Dantay

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Re: Marvel and DC - Diversity?
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2017, 09:50:48 AM »
blaming diversity is bull, its pretty simple Marvels being doing the same old s*** for years and keeps renumbering comics and events and favoritism, god damn Captain Marvel has had multiple opportunity and big pushs in other comics even though her numbers suck

Online Dantay

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Re: Marvel and DC - Diversity?
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2017, 10:21:28 AM »
i hate this one but i agree with her points https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CnTDE2zZU0 Comicbookgirl19

Offline anya

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Re: Marvel and DC - Diversity?
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2017, 11:32:15 PM »
'Diversity', in and of itself a 'good thing'. Heck, being a '90's kids' I can get 'nostalgic' for characters like storm, bishop, jubilee and psylocke ( I didn't know psylocke wasn't really Asian back then) and forge, etc... But when pretty much all the 'flagship' character are replaced in like two years, it seems more like a gimmick than an 'organic' storyline.  Especially when other 'organic' storylines have been deliberately squashed to push other gimmicks. I'm not going to comment on how well executed the various replacement titles have been, (maybe they were all great...) because I dropped all marvel titles a while ago and have just barely started picking up a few things here and there.

Ironically,  while the 'diversity push' was going on, marvel was also doing 'not so diverse' stuff like shelving storm, to push edgy cyclops, turning bishop into a maniac to push plot device hope, turning forge into a maniac and then a clingy vaguely stalker type, for no good reason whatsoever... and the reason I stopped reading, xmen legacy, which was one of marvel's only female lead comics at the time, featured such stunningly misogynistic reasoning like he does horrible things to her, but she shouldn't think so much about, because that's what love really is. So I don't think marvel is always sincere on their diverse front.

So that combined with the unabashed, obvious gimmicks, like the video was talking about, constant cross overs and re-launches, that is likely the 'problem'.