Topic: Rogue & Gambit- Discussion/ Spoiler Talk

[DonPriceTag]

You seem to be a bit more agitated over this than thought. Won't go further into this much longer... But o believe you're misconstruing my posts. I'm actually asking what you think is going on. I'm talking about human action and response. I can't really tell if you're talking about KT the writer or Rogue the character. I'm more interested in talking about character motivations rather than writer missteps, because if we're going to start sifting stories by that then this is all just assumptions because none of work with these people or are present at their little retreats. The only reason I talked about KT earlier was to explain why she probably didn't write Rogue just outright denouncing Magneto (though I kinda think she just called him an experiment. Is that a good thing?), professional courtesy and all that...


Is anyone else having issues with predictive text when posting here?

[DonPriceTag]

But getting back to character motivations, it's one of the reasons I like the idea that Gambits self loathing drove Rogue to leave him in Antarctica (because that didn't make sense), and why I hate that X-Men just let it happen. Also why I really hate retcons and love continuity. I can't change what's happened. It's printed but I love making sense of it. Assuming it's possible because somethings are just pointless. Like Gambit at burning man or Johnny and Rogue happening off panel during a period of time that doesn't exist.

[remydat]

Not agitated at all.  It is what it is. If KT could have Rogue say Mags was an experiment then she could have had her simply say he was a mistake and that she never should have slept with the dude that helped ruin their relationship.  So trying to explain that away as professional courtesy makes no sense.  She has invalidated Rogueneto either way.  She simply did so in a way I think preserves her favorite character as she just couldnt quite bring herself to having Rogue admit the truth.

As for what it means for Rogue.  Rogue is still running that is what it means.  She can't admit she messed up with Mags so she tries to lump him in with Deadpool and Johnny but anyone that read Rogueneto and knows the history knows he was different.

So until Rogue can come to terms with the fact that on some level she betrayed the man she claims to be her one true love, their relationship is ultimately built on a lie.  She wasn't exploring with Mags.  Exploring doesnt do justice to the betrayal.

We all know there are certain people that if we slept with them our ex would be livid.  So while we have the right to do it many of us have the courtesy and regard not to particularly if we still love our ex as Rogue claims.  Rogue has yet to fully own what she did by sleeping with Mags.  That is the issue that until resolved forever taints them getting back together IMO which is a shame because KT has done well showing what they can be.  For many the good will make them ignore it being built on a lie.  It simply doesnt work for me so in the end to each his/her own.

[AeroSennin]

While not direct it makes a tonne of sense. And for someone who run's and seems has trouble being honest with thier emotions it seems a massive admission while trying to hold some dignity. Esp with something so important, something Gambit has experience with and i assume a lot of empathy i think he would be content to read between the lines. It feels real in a visceral way opening up a fair amount of vulnerability. I think Gambit showed great maturity by taking it at its meaning knowing who it comes from and accepting it as the olive branch it is not throwing his toys out the cot wanting to "btb". It is a way of admitting culpability without pulling the scabs off every wound would we really expect a blow by blow of every missgiving leading into some siege mindwarfare? If you are wanting to reconcile and you know the details why burn yourself right back down again for no purpose if the real heart of what you want has been addressed.


It also seems a tidy way of rolling it all up and laying it out for what it is and without naming it becomes a cover all for all the other things even johnny pool and the rest.


It sets a tone of reconciliation, the more i think about it seems thr best way forward with the options realistically available.

[remydat]

There is nothing wrong with telling someone you messed up.  That is all that would have been required.


Saying you were exploring with Mags is not a massive admission.  It is a massive copout.  But of you guys are fine with it then do you.

[DonPriceTag]

I think there's a difference in "being fine" with something and just not letting something bother me. In the grand scheme of things, this seems mild to what actually irks me in terms of Gambit;


Him being left in Antarctica
Agreeing to be Death
Losing like he did to Cap
Losing fights to effing Mystique
Most of X-factor (though there were places PAD was great)
Clown Pants, clown pants, effing clown pants
Freaking out after kissing Frenzy


And for goodness sake can we stop with the "whatever" disclaimers? Not just you. It's patronizing and gives the impression of something is wrong with everyone else for not sharing the sentiment. Probably no one's intension but its a mood killer. Id like to post here more than once a day but we have to leave it bit more accessible as if an argument isn't going to be birthed. I'm not posting CBR anymore because apparently we can't have a difference in opinion there without being a "troll". And they banned Purp, so #&#$ them lol. I just want to hear your thoughts and ideas, not convince you to think like me.


 I believe a lot of you are enjoying this book more than you'll openly admit. Shh I won't tell

[purplevit]

I think there's a difference in "being fine" with something and just not letting something bother me. In the grand scheme of things, this seems mild to what actually irks me in terms of Gambit;


Him being left in Antarctica
Agreeing to be Death
Losing like he did to Cap
Losing fights to effing Mystique
Most of X-factor (though there were places PAD was great)
Clown Pants, clown pants, effing clown pants
Freaking out after kissing Frenzy

This list kills me

[remydat]

I think there's a difference in "being fine" with something and just not letting something bother me. In the grand scheme of things, this seems mild to what actually irks me in terms of Gambit;


Him being left in Antarctica
Agreeing to be Death
Losing like he did to Cap
Losing fights to effing Mystique
Most of X-factor (though there were places PAD was great)
Clown Pants, clown pants, effing clown pants
Freaking out after kissing Frenzy

The first thing on your list was caused by Mags and therein lies the rub.


I am not bothered by it.  I am telling you my thoughts about it.  If I were bothered by it I wouldn't be saying KT has done a.good job overall.  One can offer a critique of something without being bothered by it.  We are only still talking about it because you asked me to discuss my opinion more.

[DonPriceTag]

Your response is as if I were talking about you. I was actually talking about me. When it said "me" it wasn't symbolism for "you". My intention is not to accuse you of being one way or another. I'm not debating or being combative, here. Got no wish for that. I'm in search of a conversation, not argument. But I like this. Two responses in as many minutes. Dope.

[DonPriceTag]

As a fan of Rogue, there are things that annoy me as well. I'm not "mad" about Antarctica because I do think the idea of here bring affected by Gambits mind is viable (because otherwise that @&## dont make sense). But that doesn't excuse the X-Men's response or lack thereof.


Then there's her not going after Gambit once he was Death. Could have been a great subplot like how Wolvie did in xtas chasing Morph.


Positively annoyed with her telling Gambit she wasn't "ready" once she control of her powers in large parts thanks to him


Now the end of AoX where she goes off with Mags. I don't like mix blame with cannon character moments and writer BS but it's hard because that was based on a effing retcon. Legacy never showed anything for Magneto during aox. And when asked about the problems Rogue should have with being Magneto Carey said they worked it out off panel. At that point Carey is just inserting himself into the universe and playing god with the infinity gauntlet.


Then there was every author shipping her with their favorite character, including Carey and either having the gest of it occur "off panel" or out of thin air. Johnny doesn't make sense in the time given or the fact she can't control her powers; she had no reason to "make out" with Deadpool or why he's not in a coma. There's more stuff, but most recent and stands out the most to me.


I detest inconsistencies.

[remydat]

Your response is as if I were talking about you. I was actually talking about me. When it said "me" it wasn't symbolism for "you". My intention is not to accuse you of being one way or another. I'm not debating or being combative, here. Got no wish for that. I'm in search of a conversation, not argument. But I like this. Two responses in as many minutes. Dope.

I know you weren't referring to me directly but obviously when you say what you did in the midst of a back and forth, someone could read it and infer that you saying you are not bothered implies that I may be so I was just responding to clarify my position.  I don't find this combative at all. 

The thing that annoys people about Antarctica is that it was clearly written to cover for Rogue.  I remember reading it back then and I remember the flak Rogue was getting for it.  So it was clear to me back then it was a retcon meant to soften what Rogue did rather than something they truly envisioned at the start.

And while I agree with most of what you said, I think the same sort of analysis should be applied here.  We all know that when the stories were told, Mags was more than just exploring.  They have a long history together and this is where we need to give our buddy Jason Esta some credit.  He is right.  Mags is more prominent in Rogue's story than Deadpool or Johnny who are the guys I can accept are her exploring.  Even if you ignore the Trial stuff, Mags has popped in and out of her life several times and their relationship clearly was much more as told by Carey.

So now we seem to be ok with KT basically retconning that story as her just exploring simply because it gets some people to Romy.  So this is why I am saying it is not a matter of me being upset or bothered.  This is simply me holding her to the same standard I have held every writer to.  If I am going to critique when Carey or other writers play it loose with continuity then I need to do the same for KT.  And if KT is just going to pretend like all those interactions with Mags was just Rogue exploring then I see no reason for her not to go all the way and simply have Rogue admit to it being a mistake.

[Nekobaghira]

Careful, this post will not be for the faint of heart ... rant-ish I guess, and not in response to anyone. LOL Just an opinion.

I don't like this book. I don't like Rogue and she'll come out of it like some precious princess, she always gets that treatment from anyone who writes her. She does no wrong, doesn't admit to doing wrong, doesn't own anything. It is always somebody else when it comes to her.

Self Loathing - Gambit
killed some dude - Wonder Man - didn't know his strength and what not.
fake feelings for Magneto - those memories she held onto were placed in her head, so she sleeps with Magneto. And she won't even own it.  Or that is never written to own it. This is the problem.

Magneto an experiment ..... far too much history between Magneto and Rogue for that. Was she trying to spare Gambit's feelings? I dunno, you can't tell, she doesn't admit to anything, and what she does admit to is so subtle that is easy to gloss over. Hall pass. Wait, we have a "harbor speech" by Gambit, therefore it was his fault for her to experiment with Magneto. See, how easy it is ....

Gambit will be the pining punk love interest who did some cool s*** with his powers and accepting of Rogue and her crap because he always does. Rogue - Marvel Princess will move on and not deal with her issues and not held accountable for anything. R&G 5 issue mini.

I don't give a s*** about her days with the Brotherhood. It's not held against her now, not like the MM is held against Gambit at every turn. There is some sort of pedestal for Rogue. I'm not even going to get into all the kills Magneto and Wolverine racked up and nobody says boo about it. But hey, remember the retcon of MM - Gambit ... lets not ever forget that and lets bring it up every time there is a trust issue with Rogue.

She is still not owning her s***. That is where this book is failing for me. She is not growing as a character, she is not admitting to anything, beyond mildly saying she did things. She never apologizes for anything. She barely shows remorse. This is a difficult character to identify with or like ...Yes, its how she's written and she's fictional. That said, then she should be written better. IMO I read books for entertainment, I am not entertained.

Gambit has always been written to own his misdeeds, to the point of overkill. Its constantly in his face. And not just by writers, fans too. Where is the balance.

All the bs aside between the couple, the one thing not really being addressed, the one thing that is brought up time, and time again ...... TRUST. They don't have it, or more specifically she doesn't trust Gambit. This is stated in far too many books for it to just be glossed over in a mini. We can address and look at the events that have shaped this pairing and look at the misdeeds and what not but until trust is built, for which Rogue has repeatedly stated is an issue with Gambit, then whats the point.

There you go, how's that for opinion. LMAO.

[albahan888]

I'm with remydat from what I've heard of this issue because I don't give Marvel my money anymore and therefore haven't read any of this series. You can't just handwave Magneto as 'exploring' after the way it was actually presented and (poorly) handled and especially with Rogue apparently using Gambit's words to justify it and deciding that Antarctica is the worst thing to happen to their relationship (which isn't necessarily wrong). Magneto caused Antarctica and she knows that and I also agree if you're going with a handwavey explanation just admit it was a mistake and go from there. Human Torch or Deadpool maybe would be exploring but Magneto isn't. As I've said here before he is the second worst character for Rogue to get with that would be an insult to Gambit behind Mr. Sinister... Mr. Sinister is the only worse one that would make less sense.


Also, Antarctica has already been addressed and gotten over to some extent but nothing since Milligan and Carey has and it doesn't sound like it's going to be. It's just frustrating to see that probably the only book that will (for a while) care about or try to address and fix Romy is ignoring one of the biggest monkey wrenches that has been stuck in it recently especially since it easily ties in to the Trial of Gambit. I understand that it's probably hard to explain it and deal with it because it doesn't make any sense in the first place but as she said if it's gonna matter going forward you've got to address the continuity and problems and I don't think you do that by just handwaving her 'relationship' with that old terrorist away like that. Like I said though I don't really have the context or direct quotes of what was said to go by so I can only react based on an impression. Gotta say I do disagree with the one Rogue (I assume) quote I saw on the CBR Forums because I feel like that's basically how writers have treated things since the Magneto mess (again I don't read Marvel anymore so it's just the impression that I get)... which isn't a fictional character's fault but you know.

[Nekobaghira]

Here is the thing with a fictional character's fault. It is theirs to own because they are the ones used in the story. We're a small group, CBR is small too btw - and we're more in the know as it were when it comes to writers, and artists. Joe or Jane Doe off the street who is buying for no reason other than something to read, may not know who wrote what or care who wrote it. It will still come down to the character in the end.

[bark_no_byte]

For what it's worth, I think it's a BS excuse, but it is cannon until someone else retcons it. Either way, it's not an issue that really bothers me.

Careful, this post will not be for the faint of heart ... rant-ish I guess, and not in response to anyone. LOL Just an opinion.


I don't give a s*** about her days with the Brotherhood. It's not held against her now, not like the MM is held against Gambit at every turn. There is some sort of pedestal for Rogue. I'm not even going to get into all the kills Magneto and Wolverine racked up and nobody says boo about it. But hey, remember the retcon of MM - Gambit ... lets not ever forget that and lets bring it up every time there is a trust issue with Rogue.

This s*** though...You hit the nail on the head, Neko