Topic: Rogue & Gambit- Discussion/ Spoiler Talk

[Nekobaghira]

As for the issue, it was probably the best issue so far and was close to convincing me that Romy could work at present.  It would have been interesting to see what KT could have done with them if she had a clean slate and none of the baggage but sadly she does not and there is still too much left unsaid between them for me to be a full believer.  But it is a rather enjoyable and at times emotional read.

I thought this issue was good. Nice nod to Asmus' solo too with the Avenger's thing.

Agree too much left unsaid, and Gambit gave her another out .... instead of letting her apologize which she should have just done and ignored him. She is good at ignoring his wishes in the past, she should have stayed true and woman'd up. IMO.

The art is good and the power swap was interesting.

[purplevit]

Reread it twice before posting.
Wow as great as previous issue! So emotional, actioned packed and beautiful. Nothing to say more. Great issue. So sad that only 1 issue is left of that awesome book.

Gambit was awesome in this. A lot may not enjoy first issue of R&G or even the whole mini but overall KT in 4 issues did much much more for Remy then Asmus in his first arc.
Ofcourse it was hard for Asmus to return Gambit from crap to normal but resolve all bagage of Romy for KT is much harder for sure.Interesting what she would do if it was an ongoing.

Also Gambit kicked Cap in this. It was not real Cap but he did this

[remydat]

KT didn't resolve all baggage.  She just has the characters skipping over the baggage and focusing on very simple issues.

Perhaps she did more than Asmus in his first arc but that is not an apples vs apples comparison.  Asmus knew he was writing an ongoing and paced his story that way.  KT knew she was writing a mini and paced her story that way. 

If KT were actually doing an ongoing then I would expect a lot more focus on the real issues in their relationship as the wedding scene and the Avengers scene really aren't the first things any person would point to if they were addressing their issues.  MM, The Trial, Foxxx, Lili, Deathbit, Rogneto are far more pressing issues.  The reality is KT chose safe flashbacks to try and tackle things which makes sense in a mini I suppose.

[purplevit]

KT didn't resolve all baggage.  She just has the characters skipping over the baggage and focusing on very simple issues that really have nothing to do with the larger baggage.


Perhaps she did more than Asmus in his first arc but that is not an apples vs apples comparison.  Asmus knew he was writing an ongoing and paced his story that way.  KT knew she was writing a mini and paced her story that way. 


If KT were actually doing an ongoing then I would expect a lot more focus on the real issues in their relationship as the wedding scene and the Avengers scene really aren't the first things any person would point to if they were addressing their issues.  The Trial, Foxxx, Lili, Deathbit, Rogneto are far more pressing issues.  The reality is KT chose safe flashbacks to try and tackle things which makes sense in a mini I suppose.

KT didn't resolve all baggage but Asmus didn't bring Gambit back to his glory days either.


Gambit is better fighter in R&G then in his latest solo and it is already means a lot.


Asmus started to write Gambit best at #9 and KT started with #2.


Asmus may be planning as ongoing but some his issues as #3 had no meat inside.
I liked Asmus and his solo but in short term of 4 issues my vote is for KT.
The same thing I can say if you will compare Fabian's and Asmus solo. Fabian's has much more for Gambit in first arc.

[Miss Misery]

Okay, so I thought to jog my memory by re-listening to the podcast and:

I was thinking in ultimate terms of their powers, which is probably what KT didn't mean. She was probably just saying in general. Which as Dantay said, nobody at Marvel remembers, so I guess it doesn't matter anyway (?). Which sucks.
And yeah, the hosts both sound too similar. And annoying. (Sorry, I hate that nasally kind of voice.)
Again with the Gambit-as-coolness-burrito argument. I'm so tired of hearing it. Also tired of hearing about his "creepiness"--what people tend to forget is that women--including Rogue--are attracted to him, which makes a big difference. I'm so tired of people thinking of him as some sort of sleazy pickup artist.

***
Anyways, the issue. I really enjoyed it. I honestly can't find things to complain about. Actually, I *could* but don't really see the point in getting angry again at him letting her off--but that's just me.

 I am really loving that Gambit's powers are being used well and I admit I got emotional at their flashbacks. I also liked all the details included like them getting teary-eyed after seeing each other's perspectives. And Remy beating up Cap was a nice touch, even though it wasn't real.

[purplevit]

Yeah, fake Cap was just a surprise present for Gambit fans:)

[remydat]

KT didn't resolve all baggage but Asmus didn't bring Gambit back to his glory days either.

Gambit is better fighter in R&G then in his latest solo and it is already means a lot.

Asmus started to write Gambit best at #9 and KT started with #2.

Asmus may be planning as ongoing but some his issues as #3 had no meat inside.
I liked Asmus and his solo but in short term of 4 issues my vote is for KT.
The same thing I can say if you will compare Fabian's and Asmus solo. Fabian's has much more for Gambit in first arc.

Not sure what you mean by glory days.  Asmus had already dealt with Romy and all this solo did was regress him further back than where he was at the end of Asmus, David, and Liu simply because of what Soule wrote.  This solo isn't moving him forward so much as it is erasing all the development he received away from Rogue to put him back where he was decades ago.

By contrast, Asmus made Gambit King of Thieves and gave him back his full powers after he was resurrected.  Those are far more interesting developments than sticking him back with his old lady.

Gambit is not a better fighter.  All this solo proves is that he can beat weakened clones of Rogue and himself, some unknown villain that isn't really a fighter, simulations of the Avengers, and guys that weren't seriously fighting over a garter.  None of those things speaks to some great skill.  Not that Asmus had him taking on world beaters but Asmus certainly had more creative uses of Gambit's powers than this solo.  Rather than just blow up stuff, we had him making things disintegrate, powering Iron Man suits, etc.  There is nothing in this solo that is especially exciting regarding his power usage.

I still wouldn't trade Gambit interacting with Nils, Fence, Pete Wisdom, Cece, Iceman, Karma, Polaris, Quicksilver or being King of Thieves, a trusted confidant in Liu's AXM and to X-23, or being recruited for Serval by Polaris.  Those represented new and potentially exciting relationships and roles for Gambit and showed that people valued him in some way.  This is just more of the same old tired stuff with Rogue.  I just give KT credit for writing it well but in the end, I'd much rather read people respecting and wanting Gambit on their team or to run their Guild than I would Rogue having to be convinced of Gambit's value. 

And therein lies the rub.  This solo was Rogue having to be convinced of Gambit's worth.  Asmus, Liu and David wrote people that barely knew him having more appreciation and respect for his worth than the woman who supposedly knows him best.  It is a well written story about how Rogue has taken Gambit for granted all these years.  But I get that for Romy fans, it reads differently so to each his or her own. 

[Sparta]

Another entertaining issue by KT. Looking forward to how the story ends next month.

[purplevit]

Not sure what you mean by glory days.  Asmus had already dealt with Romy and all this solo did was regress him further back than where he was at the end of Asmus, David, and Liu simply because of what Soule wrote.  This solo isn't moving him forward so much as it is erasing all the development he received away from Rogue to put him back where he was decades ago.

By contrast, Asmus made Gambit King of Thieves and gave him back his full powers after he was resurrected.  Those are far more interesting developments than sticking him back with his old lady.

Gambit is not a better fighter.  All this solo proves is that he can beat weakened clones of Rogue and himself, some unknown villain that isn't really a fighter, simulations of the Avengers, and guys that weren't seriously fighting over a garter.  None of those things speaks to some great skill.  Not that Asmus had him taking on world beaters but Asmus certainly had more creative uses of Gambit's powers than this solo.  Rather than just blow up stuff, we had him making things disintegrate, powering Iron Man suits, etc.  There is nothing in this solo that is especially exciting regarding his power usage.

I still wouldn't trade Gambit interacting with Nils, Fence, Pete Wisdom, Cece, Iceman, Karma, Polaris, Quicksilver or being King of Thieves, a trusted confidant in Liu's AXM and to X-23, or being recruited for Serval by Polaris.  Those represented new and potentially exciting relationships and roles for Gambit and showed that people valued him in some way.  This is just more of the same old tired stuff with Rogue.  I just give KT credit for writing it well but in the end, I'd much rather read people respecting and wanting Gambit on their team or to run their Guild than I would Rogue having to be convinced of Gambit's value. 

And therein lies the rub.  This solo was Rogue having to be convinced of Gambit's worth.  Asmus, Liu and David wrote people that barely knew him having more appreciation and respect for his worth than the woman who supposedly knows him best.  It is a well written story about how Rogue has taken Gambit for granted all these years.  But I get that for Romy fans, it reads differently so to each his or her own. 

As glory days I meant Gambit at his best days. When he was skilled fighter, smart, dangerous etc.

Asmus didn`t resolve Romy. He just pushed them apart in kind way. They were still toxic with a huge baggage.
KT resolved most of this baggage.

By contrast, Asmus made Gambit King of Thieves and gave him back his full powers in 17 issues. That wasn`t made in 4 issues. I already told that I compared only first four Asmus issues vs KT`s first 4. It is not right to compare 4 issues vs 17 and I don`t understand why you are doing this.

Again you are compairing the wgole Asmus run. Gambit didn`t make more creative uses of his powers in first arc of Amsus solo then in R&G.

Gambit fight is R&G #3 with golems was great. Rogue was punched by golems. Gambit wasn`t. He was fast enough to dodge all attacks and kicking back. There are no better or even close Gambit fight to this in Asmus solo.

Again Iron-man suit was in issue 13 and not in first arc. 13 issues is almost 3 times more then R&G mini.

And again most characters that you mentioned were not used in first arc.
The whole runs vs 4 issues of mini comprasion as you are doing is not right.

[Nekobaghira]

Keep in mind gang, its just opinion and we do not see everything the exact same way. Our connection is Gambit.

Comparing Asmus solo to KT's mini is apples vs oranges. Taking the first arc and putting up to the mini isn't exactly treating either book with any fairness.

The Asmus solo, took a character who was in bad shape, story-wise, character-wise and was in need of updating as much as Marvel was willing to allow, a reset of the status quo for Gambit and where ever his relationship was at that time which was no where.  It was a different thing.

The KT mini isn't an updating project for either character, its a concentrated story that focuses on one aspect of the two characters, their relationship. The only change to either character is where they will be at the end in their relationship. Perhaps a better place for other books down the road or something. I don't know.

These two concepts for story telling are completely different with different goals for the characters. 

The driving narrative is the difference.

There is only one issue left and only 20 pages for resolve, too much stuff not said. Guess we'll see how well it turns out.

[Nekobaghira]

I still wouldn't trade Gambit interacting with Nils, Fence, Pete Wisdom, Cece, Iceman, Karma, Polaris, Quicksilver or being King of Thieves, a trusted confidant in Liu's AXM and to X-23, or being recruited for Serval by Polaris.  Those represented new and potentially exciting relationships and roles for Gambit and showed that people valued him in some way.  This is just more of the same old tired stuff with Rogue.  I just give KT credit for writing it well but in the end, I'd much rather read people respecting and wanting Gambit on their team or to run their Guild than I would Rogue having to be convinced of Gambit's value. 

And therein lies the rub.  This solo was Rogue having to be convinced of Gambit's worth.  Asmus, Liu and David wrote people that barely knew him having more appreciation and respect for his worth than the woman who supposedly knows him best.  It is a well written story about how Rogue has taken Gambit for granted all these years.  But I get that for Romy fans, it reads differently so to each his or her own. 

Agreed. Depending on how it ends, I worry Gambit will be regressed to waiting on Rogue, because .... I'm gonna call it now. She'll need "time". If putting the ball in her court is what happens, then move Gambit along. He should not be waiting for her. If I'm wrong, okay.

I want Gambit to be solid on his own without needing another character or for him used as a boost to another character.

The things that bothered me with the current issue. Rogue didn't know that her words hurt Gambit when it came to the Avengers. Really? Currently no words worth typing at this time to express what I think is wrong here with this. While the benefit of the doubt would tell me its possible, with trust being an issue for so long between them, she had to have known what she said would have been an issue for him. Instead, his own insecurities about self worth glosses it over. I'm so tired of those types of insecurities when it comes to Gambit.

Hey, if you are loving this book, love it, buy it, buy more than one copy.

[remydat]

As glory days I meant Gambit at his best days. When he was skilled fighter, smart, dangerous etc.

Asmus didn`t resolve Romy. He just pushed them apart in kind way. They were still toxic with a huge baggage.
KT resolved most of this baggage.

By contrast, Asmus made Gambit King of Thieves and gave him back his full powers in 17 issues. That wasn`t made in 4 issues. I already told that I compared only first four Asmus issues vs KT`s first 4. It is not right to compare 4 issues vs 17 and I don`t understand why you are doing this.

Again you are compairing the wgole Asmus run. Gambit didn`t make more creative uses of his powers in first arc of Amsus solo then in R&G.

Gambit fight is R&G #3 with golems was great. Rogue was punched by golems. Gambit wasn`t. He was fast enough to dodge all attacks and kicking back. There are no better or even close Gambit fight to this in Asmus solo.

Again Iron-man suit was in issue 13 and not in first arc. 13 issues is almost 3 times more then R&G mini.

And again most characters that you mentioned were not used in first arc.
The whole runs vs 4 issues of mini comprasion as you are doing is not right.

As Neko said, Asmus and KT books were different hence why I don't know why you are trying to compare.  It would be like you reading the first 300 pages of a 1,000 page novel and then comparing it a full novel that was only 300 pages.  It is a silly comparison because the intent of the 300 page novel was to finish the story in 300 pages.  The intent of the 1,000 page novel was to finish the story over 1,000 pages so the first 300 pages are simply incomplete.  No one reviews novels this way so all you have done is set up a comparison that is rigged in KT's favor.  It is obvious that KT's work will have more packed into it because it is being told over a shorter time horizon over less pages.

With that aside, Gambit was smart and dangerous in Asmus' run.  He perhaps wasn't as great a fighter as his glory days but he certainly used his powers in smart and creative ways.  I also don't care that Gambit beat up weak golems of himself and Rogue.  They shouldn't be able to touch him because they are garbage.  They should be able to touch Rogue because she was never an agile fighter but rather a brawler.

Asmus also did resolve Romy as he had Gambit acknowledging their past love but moving on.  It was clear at the end of the solo that Rogue and Gambit were not together and it was fairly final.  Hence why in the years after the solo Gambit was perfectly content pursuing other characters.  It was only Charles Soule that completely ignored Asmus, Liu, and David's run and put Gambit back pining after Rogue. 

[remydat]

Agreed. Depending on how it ends, I worry Gambit will be regressed to waiting on Rogue, because .... I'm gonna call it now. She'll need "time". If putting the ball in her court is what happens, then move Gambit along.He should not be waiting for her. If I'm wrong, okay.

I want Gambit to be solid on his own without needing another character or for him used as a boost to another character.

The things that bothered me with the current issue. Rogue didn't know that her words hurt Gambit when it came to the Avengers. Really? Currently no words worth typing at this time to express what I think is wrong here with this. While the benefit of the doubt would tell me its possible, with trust being an issue for so long between them, she had to have known what she said would have been an issue for him. Instead, his own insecurities about self worth glosses it over. I'm so tired of those types of insecurities when it comes to Gambit.

Hey, if you are loving this book, love it, buy it, buy more than one copy.

The fundamnetal issue in their relationship is Rogue never seems to appreciate Gambit for what he is but rather he is in a constant state of trying to prove his worth to her.  That is tiring and ultimately only breeds contempt and resenment in the end.  The writers can force Gambit to not feel this resentment and contempt because he is fictional so in the end his fans feel it for him.

I am at the point where I just feel Rogue isn't worth it and is simply disloyal.  KT is a good story teller but the problem is not her writing, it is Rogue.  It is just a particular feature of Rogue that a part of her thinks Gambit doesnt deserve her.

[purplevit]

As Neko said, Asmus and KT books were different hence why I don't know why you are trying to compare.  It would be like you reading the first 300 pages of a 1,000 page novel and then comparing it a full novel that was only 300 pages.  It is a silly comparison because the intent of the 300 page novel was to finish the story in 300 pages.  The intent of the 1,000 page novel was to finish the story over 1,000 pages so the first 300 pages are simply incomplete.  No one reviews novels this way so all you have done is set up a comparison that is rigged in KT's favor.  It is obvious that KT's work will have more packed into it because it is being told over a shorter time horizon over less pages.

With that aside, Gambit was smart and dangerous in Asmus' run.  He perhaps wasn't as great a fighter as his glory days but he certainly used his powers in smart and creative ways.  I also don't care that Gambit beat up weak golems of himself and Rogue.  They shouldn't be able to touch him because they are garbage.  They should be able to touch Rogue because she was never an agile fighter but rather a brawler.

Asmus also did resolve Romy as he had Gambit acknowledging their past love but moving on.  It was clear at the end of the solo that Rogue and Gambit were not together and it was fairly final.  Hence why in the years after the solo Gambit was perfectly content pursuing other characters.  It was only Charles Soule that completely ignored Asmus, Liu, and David's run and put Gambit back pining after Rogue. 

Noone is setting up a comparison that is rigged in KT's favor. Relax. I loved Gambit by Asmus as much as you. His #1 is much better then R&G #1.


In both books Gambit is a main character and I can easily compare how he was written in them both.


Funny because it is exactly what happend. Golems were not able to touch him and were able to touch Rogue.


I told that Asmus pushed away them kindly but both characters stayed toxic. KT`s mini was planned to make them not so toxic to write and resolve the baggage. The same way as Asmus` solo was planned to reboot Gambit in some way from all crap.

[bark_no_byte]

Okay, so I thought to jog my memory by re-listening to the podcast and:

I was thinking in ultimate terms of their powers, which is probably what KT didn't mean. She was probably just saying in general. Which as Dantay said, nobody at Marvel remembers, so I guess it doesn't matter anyway (?). Which sucks.
And yeah, the hosts both sound too similar. And annoying. (Sorry, I hate that nasally kind of voice.)
Again with the Gambit-as-coolness-burrito argument. I'm so tired of hearing it. Also tired of hearing about his "creepiness"--what people tend to forget is that women--including Rogue--are attracted to him, which makes a big difference. I'm so tired of people thinking of him as some sort of sleazy pickup artist.

You hit on a couple different things that annoy me about them. They tout themselves as loving everything X-Men, but apparently that line stops at Gambit, because they're so hypocritical sometimes when talking about him. I got sick of hearing them talk about how much of a douche he is and how he's just a creep. I read in a description for one of their episodes about how "Gambit ruins everything." Don't get me wrong, I try not to take him too seriously because there are some ridiculous aspects about him (like his costume, for example), but they're just unrelenting when bashing Gambit sometimes