Topic: X-Men Red

[DonPriceTag]

I didn't take it as a personal attack.  I simply responded in kind.  For Gambit fans, I think sometimes you guys get a bit too worked up anytime someone says something about Rogue or Romy.  90% of the time I am just messing around with the stuff I say but it is like all the Romy or Rogue fans fly off the handle.

I haven't talked about Rogue yet, this is a Red thread. She's not in this book. Didn't even bring it up, so I don't get this "you guys". Your the only one that even went there. Your the only one bringing anything Romy on this page. I think thou protest too much. I think your being tad bit too protective and worrying a little too much about my opinion. If you enjoyed the book, fine. I think it was a bit long winded and boring for the most part, especially considering Gambit. Your aren't the book, so I don't understand as to why you got the way you did. I wasn't talking about you.


Shots fired? At whom? I had no idea you felt so passionately about Lui's AXM. And I was very disappointed that she didn't come through on her promise for a Gambit arc, a promise she made after fans asked why he wasn' getting a bigger part in her arcs following her great X-23 run with him.

[remydat]

I haven't talked about Rogue yet, this is a Red thread. She's not in this book. Didn't even bring it up, so I don't get this "you guys". Your the only one that even went there. Your the only one bringing anything Romy on this page. I think thou protest too much. I think your being tad bit too protective and worrying a little too much about my opinion. If you enjoyed the book, fine. I think it was a bit long winded and boring for the most part, especially considering Gambit. Your aren't the book, so I don't understand as to why you got the way you did. I wasn't talking about you.

You are right, this is a Red thread so not sure why AXM was brought up.  You made a comparison to AXM and I countered with a comparison to stories about Romy.  You find AXM boring so I countered that I find Romy stories tired and boring.  That is entirely fair for me to do. Once comparisons are thrown out, I am not required to limit myself to only the comparison you brought up.  The point was we all find different things boring, exciting, etc.  One of the reasons Red or AXM appeals to me and Gambit fans like me is precisely because it excludes Rogue and that is an entirely valid point to bring up.

And you guys aren't Rogue but on multiple occasions now anytime I bring up something I don't like, people seem entitled to respond by complaining about the fact I don't like what they like.

I don't think you want me to quote all the examples of Rogue and Romy fans taking things personally so perhaps we should all collectively respect the fact that we aren't going to all like the same things because right now we have a lot of pots talking to kettles about who is blacker.

[DonPriceTag]

Rogue wasnt in AXM either. Not this vol anyway. But Gambit is, and played a support role on a large cast. Similarly to Red (similar, because I've never seen a book out side of Gen-X be this big). Again, with the "you guys" your talking to two other people here and the only reason Rogue got brought up was because you dragged the topic in it. I'm still not talking about Rogue.


You seem to be bringing in your conversations and experiences from other threads (and possibly other sites), and arguments and trying to use them here for reasons I don't get. I'm not arguing Rogue here. No one is. I don't see the point of even bringing that up? You and I have done nothing but talk Red and AXM, neither of which have anything to do with that. I'm not trying to change your mind on Rogue. Why would I care to? You've made your stance clear. I respect that.


My stance: Im not impressed with Red thus far from a narrative or artistic standpoint. I'm only reading it because Gambit is in it, but with such a large cast I'm not optimistic about how much he's going to be used (which again, is the only reason I'm still reading aka spending my money). If his usage rate and the manner in which utilized is anything like Lui's, or heck, Soule's, both of which had smaller casts, I'll be taking it off of my pull list.

[remydat]

That is exactly right.  Rogue wasn't in AXM either which is precisely my point as to one of the reasons I enjoyed it.  Again you expressed your opinion that you found AXM boring and that Red may be going down the same route.  I responded by saying the reason why I enjoyed AXM and why I will give Red a chance is precisely because Rogue is not in it.

There is no way for me to explain why I liked AXM and why I am willing to give Red a chance without bringing up the fact that Rogue is not in it.  That is the part of the appeal and it is entirely fair game for me to explain that in response to your point about AXM being boring.  It was not boring to me because I liked his relationships with characters not named Rogue particularly CeCe and Karma.  How else am I suppose to explain that without mentioning the elephant in the room?

Here let's make this simple.  If you respond to me about a book that does not involve Rogue, be prepared for me to point out one of the draws of the book for me is that it does not involve Rogue.  That will be a constant point in the favor of any book that does not involve Rogue.  The only thing worse to me than Gambit having a small role is Gambit playing second fiddle to Rogue which he did in Soule's book and which he did in the mini no matter how many panels he may have been in.

[DonPriceTag]

Your reading a book... Because someones not in it? To each his own, but that sounds expensive and time consuming. I'm a little different. I read comics that appeal to me. I think red is lackluster but I was giving it a shot because Gambit is in it, same as Soule's Axm. But like Soule's AXM, if it continues to suck I'll drop it like a bad habit. I will say, red is slightly better than Soule's book. Blue and Gold don't appeal to me and there are no characters in them I care for, so they don't get my attention until they change narrative or add some characters I want to follow. Red is good until he Taylor starts talking about wage gaps, Facebook and immigration. I can't really stand Gabby's cutesy, I can't believe we're doing Pet Sentinel, again. Jean is not really acting like herself and sometimes it seems Taylor forgets how to use contractions but that's just a pet peeve. The art is not good imo for a flagship book, but that seems to be changing. We'll see, I guess.

[remydat]

No I am flipping through it in the comic book store because Gambit is in it and Rogue is not.  I will pick it up in trade if I end up liking Gambit's overall portrayal.  We had two books with Gambit and Rogue and neither ended up appealing to me.  Soule was hot garbage and KT's mini while well written basically ignored any issue Gambit should have with Rogue and focused entirely on Rogue deeming Gambit worthy right down to a villain being created specifically to solve her issues with Gambit.  The whole story was contrived as a result.  There was nothing organic about the resolution as KT created a character that never existed before to solve the issue rather than Gambit actively taking part in any resolution.

I know this will sound strange but I flipped through the Rogue and Gambit mini expecting Rogue and Gambit to solve their issues.  Instead I got Rogue and Lavish solving Rogue's issues.

And I enjoy Red precisely because it has the social commentary so again you and I just like different things.  No biggie.

[DonPriceTag]

...why are we still talking about- nevermind. Yes, that last part of your post, that's fine. I don't have a problem social issues being used in books, it's been done for ages. It'd just the way Taylor does it is so hamfisted I might as well be watching TYT on YouTube (which I do, however you have to do it small doses. They lean a bit hard) lol

[remydat]

I don't find it hamfisted at all but I suspect that is because our respective politics are decidedly different which is fine.  To each his/her own.

[DonPriceTag]

Well I'm a black Democrat son of an immigrant and husband of an immigrant. It's not the subject matter, it's the uncreative way he presents it to the readers. Doesn't even try to tie it into the story and he doesn't even stick to one subject longer than an issue. And odd thing about it, he's trying to be cleaver, or thinks he is when in my opinion it's blatantly obvious. Its distracting. From what I've been told of his past stuff at DC, I'm underwhelmed.

[remydat]

Thought what he did tied into the story quite fine.  Made perfect sense to me for Trinary to want to address the wage gap in India and I never expected her to get it right as she is still a kid essentially and one person can't fix massive societal issues but I fully expect a kid to try once given the power to do so.


The stance on immigration is also perfect in keeping with a world that fears and hates mutants and it would be odd to me if he didn't address it given how it is current events and the fact that it is most definitely the case that there is an element of the right that demonizes immigrants.


He is a writer.  He is not required to offer a balanced view and most of the complaints I have heard about the social commentary is that it is too liberal.  My response is the X-men has been liberal since its existence.


So again I think we just fundamentally disagree.  Think his social commentary has been spot on.

[DonPriceTag]

But that's thing. Its not the subject matter that turns me off, it's the manner in which it's used and presented. What he's talking about doesn't bother me, I just think it's not being executed creatively. Just making sure you understand my issue. I don't think you do because you bring up other people talking about how liberal he is and his stance on immigration. That's not my angle. So far I just think his scripting is... Kinda corny.

[remydat]

But that's thing. Its not the subject matter that turns me off, it's the manner in which it's used and presented. What he's talking about doesn't bother me, I just think it's not being executed creatively. Just making sure you understand my issue. I don't think you do because you bring up other people talking about how liberal he is and his stance on immigration. That's not my angle. So far I just think his scripting is... Kinda corny.

Perhaps I am not getting your gripe. 


1.  Wage Gap - If I imagine a young female technopath trying to address a massive societal issue then I think the way Taylor had Trinary address it is exactly what I would expect so not sure why that isn't creative.  Her simple and flawed solution to a complex problem is precisely what I would expect someone with her inexperience to come up with.  So what is your concern here?


2.  Facebook - I honestly don't remember this one so not sure I can relate to it impacting me one way or the other.


3.  Immigration - I thought the stuff with the protests, the mutant being shot and the Polish army were very relevant and creative.  So again not sure what the issue is with respect to it.  It is clear the mutant narrative in the comics is very similar to the rhetoric we see today in the US and throughout Europe vis a vi immigration.


So yeah I am not getting what you expected or wanted as to be honest you only broadly stated it was uncreative with no actual explanation as to how you arrived at that conclusion so I confess I am just speculating as to what your concerns are.

[DonPriceTag]

I don't have concerns, I just think his ideas to drive the actual storylines aren't all that interesting. Everything is on the nose. He might as well be ranting on Twitter because Jean just comes off as a mouth piece.


1. Trinary. I get her plight, and see the villainy in how she was handled but... To bring attention to one problem, she potentially crippled her country's economy? That's cyber terrorism, but I'm supposed to her as a protagonist? I could get with it if she was called out on it, but it's just waved off. She's a kid and made a mistake. Had the narrative addressed it, it could have been a learning experience for the character, but no.


2. The Facebook thing was just one or two pages at most, not a plot but it was a eye roll moment for me that took me out of the story.


3. The immigration portion was least of the gripes in terms of narration, again it's just something that came out of nowhere. He seems to bounce from one virtue to another each book instead weaving a story throughout. It's like each book is treated as a one-off story with minor connecting tissue. I'm glad Nightcrawler asked Jean about what she did but her explanation didn't really validate what she did. She did something wrong to prevent something worse. I hope it's brought up again because it'd be the books first moment of real subplotting. However it led to Namors dope entrance. That was good.


As being creative and telling a story there are several or more things that bother me about this book, such as;


The amount of untrained children involved. Gabby (trained but still 13), Gentle and Trinary should not be on this type of action team. Gentle has no interest in this life; just because Gabby is indestructible doesnt mean it's ok to deliberately put her in harm's way. Trinary is 100% untrained. Laura is a kid (nxm age so more than 18-19) too but at least more experienced than some full time X-Men.


X-Men Pet Sentinel #3, not counting Omega Sentinel.


Gambit sneaking into the hospital... Wearing a surgical mask. Gambits mouth isn't the part of him that needs to be hidden. After he meets up with the team, he goes from wearing street clothes to full uniform in as many panels. That's just being picky but what the hell was that about. It's like I'm missing a page.


The fact that Jean was even entertained by this "mutant nation" idea, which I still think nonsensical. Somehow she's been able to make a friend of Atlantis and Wakanda two nation's while not currently at war, but not allies at all. If it was brought up then that would have been something but it was just; "Jean is so awesome and impressive shes made allies of two of the strongest nation's in the world! Why? Because!" I haven't seen Tchalla act so welcoming in a long time.


There are a lot of things in the book that just don't jive with my taste of storytelling. It's all too easy, without acknowledging why it's so easy. I don't like his scripting. Don't get me started on the art. So glad this new chick is coming in. I've seen her work and it's heads and shoulders better than whos been used. Looking forward to that.

[remydat]

1.  There is that saying about not throwing stones when you live in a glass house.  Your favorite character is a thief and head of an international Thieves Guild.  The X-men have no official sanction from any government most of the time so a large part of what they do would be considered terrorism.  They also routinely allow mass murderers, rapists, and all manner of criminals into their ranks allowing them to escape punishment.  So if you can still see Gambit and the X-men as protagonists then forgive me but I am still at a loss.  I think Taylor's narrative is fine and in keeping with the history of the X-men.  I think you just have issues with the politics of it and the fact it was more obviously taking from current events.  Mind you I have no problem with you feeling whichever way you want about it.  I am just explaining why I categorically disagree with you.  What Trinary did pales in comparison to me than all the crap the X-men have done without it being addressed.

2.  Fair enough!

3.  I don't think Jean did anything wrong at all.  She acted in defense of others which is entirely in keeping with the legal and moral framework of the civilized world.  By rights, she could have killed those soldiers as they were about to commit mass murder.  No one bats an eye when Wolverine kills to protect others yet someone Jean putting thoughts in people's heads but still allowing them to choose is some grave sin?  Sorry not buying it. 

4.  How old was Kitty?  Or the O5?  Again this is a staple of X-men.  Gabby is less likely to die than Kitty or any of the O5 as Kitty can be killed by being taken by surprise before she can phase.  Gentle is not a kid, tough to kill and frankly needs a purpose.  Trinary is on the team because she was caught up in the circumstances and her skill set is necessary for the team to succeed given the sentinite.  She also has not been put in any direct conflict beyond her being broken out of a hell hole where she was going to be forced to do the bidding of evil men as she hung back when they engaged the Polish Army. Having said that, it is fine if you don't like the amount of kids on the team.  That is ultimately down to preference.  I had far more issues with Cyke having Idie on his team because she was clearly mentally unstable.  I don't see that with Gabby, Gentle, or Trinary.  For me, at the end of the day, kids in harm's way is an indelible feature of the X-men.  The distinction is how they are deployed and whether they are mentally fit.

5.  Don't care about the sentinel.  It is a tool.  To me, this would be like complaining that the good guys use guns.  But again personal preference so to each his/her own.

6.  Yeah don't care about the change in wardrobe. 

7.  Jean getting the aid of Tchalla and Namor was contrived and quick.  I agree.  Sort of like how KT just magically created a villain perfect for that woman who shall not be named to get over her issues with Gambit.  In the end, the difference is down to preference.  Tchalla and Namor bother you in the same way that Lavish and the sweeping under the ruge of all the sh*t that woman that shall not be named did annoys me.  So again to each his/her own.

I suppose in the end, while I will still trade wait until I see how Gambit's role evolves, Red jives more with my taste than it does yours.  Such is life.  I don't have any major problems with it at the moment beyond the fact I would like to see more Gambit but so far at least Gambit can just be Gambit.  It is currently my only hope to get the Gambit I envision even if it is just small doses rather than the caricature of Gambit when he is with that woman who shall not be named.

[DonPriceTag]

As for Jean, you say that as if it's an outside concern created by readers. Taylor seems to think it was worth mentioning because he used Nightcrawler to sow doubt in the action, your "not buying" my concern, your not going with Taylor's, again I hope this is brought up again.


With Trinary, whats your point? Because the X-Men do it, I'm supposed to be ok with it? There's ton of things I don't understand with the X-Men, and thats because the X-Men are a revolving group of characters written by a revolving group of creators. There's going to be some drop of in logic, but the morals of the X-Men not withstanding, I don't have to be ok with what she did. It wasn't heroic, it was nonsense to work into the plot as if she was a victim. Only thing is, she should have been put in a jail, not a safe house waiting to exploited for her powers (which she used). What the X-Men do have nothing to do with logic behind her actions. Gambit has had to answer for his wrong doings on several occasions, twice in his solo alone lol. Trinary is being treated like some sort of freedom-fighter. It'd be like setting a police car on fire because a (not that one) assaulted your brother, and saying I should be ok with it because one of my teammates did something worse but I'm still playing with him. Its not the character's fault for existing, it's just patchy writing.


Again, the age of Kitty and the O5, don't make it any better. Among a host of other things, Xavier has been called out for putting children on the frontlines on several occasions (creating child soldiers). It's one of the reasons they (the X-Men) flirted with the idea of putting Kitty with the New Mutants (who like Gen-X weren't supposed to be an action team, but due to being a comic book routinely found themselves in the fire). And I never defended Lavish, this might be my first time even typing the characters name, so you can't use that to justify Namor/T'challa to me (I really think you get me mixed up with other Romy fans. I guess because I didn't hate the mini I'm Spasticat; no offense to her, I'm pretty even keel about the whole thing, so constantly bringing it in our conversations isnt really doing anything on my end.). She was a walking plot device in a five part mini that just effected two characters. Namor and T'challa move the Marvel universe with the storylines. Big difference