Author Topic: What is wrong in Comics?  (Read 1669 times)

Offline Nekobaghira

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What is wrong in Comics?
« on: August 27, 2018, 03:57:35 PM »
While the subject title can go in any direction. I'm going to ask what those know from here or the other place.

My timeline feed on twitter for the early part of the day had topics that alludes there musts be something going on, not sure what it is ...


I'll try to screen cap some tweets and post them but in the meantime, this topic is here. You folks know something, spill it.

Looks like from the search, sales isn't the only issue.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 04:09:52 PM by Nekobaghira »

Offline Nekobaghira

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Re: What is wrong in Comics?
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2018, 04:07:42 PM »
Is sales that bad? Midtown is in NYC .... if they've got something to say, it might be something in regards to sales.

Then there is the words - Comicsgate - with a youtube video if you are so inclined to watch. Shouldn't be hard to find.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 04:17:54 PM by Nekobaghira »

Offline bark_no_byte

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Re: What is wrong in Comics?
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2018, 04:49:04 PM »
I know the Comicsgate stuff has been going on for a while, but I think some of the recent stuff comes from a FB Post by Bill Sienkiewicz denouncing Comicsgate as well as bigots in general:

Offline Nekobaghira

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Re: What is wrong in Comics?
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2018, 06:45:08 PM »
Ah okay, well ... Asmus words ....

Offline DonPriceTag

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Re: What is wrong in Comics?
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2018, 08:08:03 PM »
While the subject title can go in any direction. I'm going to ask what those know from here or the other place.

My timeline feed on twitter for the early part of the day had topics that alludes there musts be something going on, not sure what it is ...


I'll try to screen cap some tweets and post them but in the meantime, this topic is here. You folks know something, spill it.

Looks like from the search, sales isn't the only issue.


I've been ignoring this ish soooooo much. It boils down to people not being able to leave each other alone. Egos, pride and grandstanding on both sides. One side is just more obnoxious than the other due to having a big stage.


If I had to root out the problem... Fear. No one has the backbone to call people out in fear that they'll be at the center of "outcry" and "backlash". Starts from the top and works it way down. If the top dogs are doing it, then the others will follow and that goes for all things in all industries.


To specific about all these tweets. Peer pressure. People putting pressure on other people to echo tweets to denounce an entire group of people (fans) for the actions of a few (it's the effing internet). What I've been seeing is people calling other people horrible names that can ruin lives just for not liking a particular comic book or writing style. At the same time, even if there are people out there causing issues, block and mute, but constantly talking about them, tweeting them and @ing just gives them a platform. It's all really stupid.


I'm not a gater and I'm darn sure not on the side of these loud mouth egomaniacs messing up my timeline (I'm a fan of a lot of them so I follow) out to defend my honor (I can talk for myself), who don't look like me, live my life or even listen to me but are real quick to use us as a sheild to just be as nasty as the people they claim to be fighting. Someone not liking a way someone else writes doesn't make them a "Nazi". On the other side, not liking someones effing comic book or what they talk about on Twitter doesn't give you the right to belittle or denigrate them. It's on both sides and the blame lies with the bosses of the big two not being able to run their houses. Lilly livered foola, the lot of them.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 08:14:04 PM by DonPriceTag »
Rogue being flung vagina-first at the first male that pops up on her radar isn't how I'd define "romance," but Marvel must be using a different dictionary than me.- NicoPony

Offline Nekobaghira

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Re: What is wrong in Comics?
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2018, 09:31:30 PM »
This s*** has been going on for awhile? I ask because I'm spending time with another fandom and they are more volatile. I'm surprised because in my minds eye - comic books are more mellow. Maybe not.

Social media has become more embolden we'll say, right, wrong or indifferent.

I don't know the "gate" things going on, because I have no idea.

Offline Meliorist

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Re: What is wrong in Comics?
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2018, 10:30:35 PM »
Doesn't seem worth getting a better handle on. A lot of the vitriol seems to stem from generalizations being thrown around by the vocal minority.

Offline DonPriceTag

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Re: What is wrong in Comics?
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2018, 07:14:51 AM »
Better to just watch it and laugh. These Twitter declarations from the pros is new. It's kind of sad because you can tell the difference between the ones that are really into it and the ones that are just putting it up so that the mob doesn't come after them. There's the 8 page rant and then there's the cut and paste one post vanilla version. I could understand something if there was some sort of organized force they were fighting, but it's not. It seems like they are just flooding streams to sway public opinion. But in my opinion they are just making us ALL look like a-holes. People on the outside don't know the difference, we're all the same to them.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 07:18:28 AM by DonPriceTag »
Rogue being flung vagina-first at the first male that pops up on her radar isn't how I'd define "romance," but Marvel must be using a different dictionary than me.- NicoPony

Offline bigbarda

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Re: What is wrong in Comics?
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2018, 11:12:33 AM »
I've been talking about comics online since 1999. There are mailing list archives going back to 1991 on Google Groups. Certain fans will always moan that comics have become vapid, commercialised crap unlike the good old days, when they were just hitting puberty and becoming self-aware. It's harder to connect with a comic, character or writer once you're past that stage. Some people have always mistaken that 'I don't connect with things the way I used to' for 'things aren't as good as they used to be'.


The issue now is that the 'things just aren't as good as they used to be' folk have got mashed in with the nationalist, far-right politics of rage and victimhood that has been brewing ever since Nixon's Southern Strategy. Cutting up an issue of Squirrel Girl to demonstrate your hate of it is, to me, aggressive. Getting into a rage about Squirrel Girl is also, to me, insane. It's meant to be silly. Marvel's always had a side-line of 'wtf talking duck defeats thanos' comics.


A certain subset of fans are treating that title, those creators and those books as an attack on them as fans. They're reacting as if Marvel is mailing them dog poop every month. It reminds me of the early 00s when certain people online would go into a rage when two men held hands in public.


Some of these reactionary commentators have tried to make their rage about the state of the market and saving the medium. It doesn't need to be saved. Marvel and DC are very cheap IP generating operations for Disney and WB. They've never made huge profits- ever. Publishing, especially monthly/weekly/dailies does NOT make money the same way other industries do.


Direct market North American sales of the top 100 have been stable for about 20 years now. Not falling, not growing. There has been a dip from 2016-17. If that continues into 2020 then that will be a new pattern of declining sales, but the past twenty years has seen similar peaks and troughs in five year groupings.


Digital sales are an unknown unknown. You could make an assumption that continuing titles that don't sell much in the direct market are maybe doing better digitally, and that's why they don't get cancelled.


Comic stores shutting down cannot be separated from the decline in retail business against online, and cannot be separated from the limitations of Diamond's direct market model.


Comics aren't dying. Marvel and DC aren't going anywhere. What's happened is that outrage, 4chan victimhood has spread into the world of Comics.

Offline Nekobaghira

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Re: What is wrong in Comics?
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2018, 11:50:14 AM »
Thank you all. You satisfied my curiosity  :gambit: :gambit: .

Edit: We can keep talking about it if you want, don't feel my thanking is closing the topic. Like Meliorist said, I don't need more of a handle on it. LOL
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 11:57:19 AM by Nekobaghira »

Offline DonPriceTag

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Re: What is wrong in Comics?
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2018, 12:42:04 PM »
I've been talking about comics online since 1999. There are mailing list archives going back to 1991 on Google Groups. Certain fans will always moan that comics have become vapid, commercialised crap unlike the good old days, when they were just hitting puberty and becoming self-aware. It's harder to connect with a comic, character or writer once you're past that stage. Some people have always mistaken that 'I don't connect with things the way I used to' for 'things aren't as good as they used to be'.


The issue now is that the 'things just aren't as good as they used to be' folk have got mashed in with the nationalist, far-right politics of rage and victimhood that has been brewing ever since Nixon's Southern Strategy. Cutting up an issue of Squirrel Girl to demonstrate your hate of it is, to me, aggressive. Getting into a rage about Squirrel Girl is also, to me, insane. It's meant to be silly. Marvel's always had a side-line of 'wtf talking duck defeats thanos' comics.


A certain subset of fans are treating that title, those creators and those books as an attack on them as fans. They're reacting as if Marvel is mailing them dog poop every month. It reminds me of the early 00s when certain people online would go into a rage when two men held hands in public.


Some of these reactionary commentators have tried to make their rage about the state of the market and saving the medium. It doesn't need to be saved. Marvel and DC are very cheap IP generating operations for Disney and WB. They've never made huge profits- ever. Publishing, especially monthly/weekly/dailies does NOT make money the same way other industries do.


Direct market North American sales of the top 100 have been stable for about 20 years now. Not falling, not growing. There has been a dip from 2016-17. If that continues into 2020 then that will be a new pattern of declining sales, but the past twenty years has seen similar peaks and troughs in five year groupings.


Digital sales are an unknown unknown. You could make an assumption that continuing titles that don't sell much in the direct market are maybe doing better digitally, and that's why they don't get cancelled.


Comic stores shutting down cannot be separated from the decline in retail business against online, and cannot be separated from the limitations of Diamond's direct market model.


Comics aren't dying. Marvel and DC aren't going anywhere. What's happened is that outrage, 4chan victimhood has spread into the world of Comics.


Aka, people not knowing how to leave each other the #@$% alone. I'm just tired of seeing this stuff pop up on my Twitter feed. I don't follow D&C or Mark Waid. I found both of their Twitter ranting annoying. There's reason on both sides, but extremist at each end drown out the saner voices.


Current Comic Pros are not trying to kill comics and take away your characters. That's from a bunch of frustrated nonsense flingers that cant properly verbalize their complaints.


"Comicgaters" are not anti-diversity. This is a straw-man accusation used to de-legitimize valid arguments from customers. Utilized mostly by folk who can't take criticism.


I guess you can lump me into the "books used to be better"-group, but I think that's obvious to me. When I say "used to be" I'm not talking about the 90s - I'm talking about as recent as 2012 when I was buying 4 to 5 titles per month. Can't really blame falling sales on the decline in quality of books (there's no effing way you can look at Marvel during the last few years and say they look the way they are supposed to as the leader of the comic industry.). The reason sales are dropping is simply because people are less willing to invest their money into literature of any kind. People are reading less. Period. Current readers are, for lack of a better phrase, dying out and they aren't rapidly being replaced as they were during the 80s-90s. We'll never see another X-Men #1 (1992) sales again or even something like the Harry Potter craze. Those times are over. Marvel is finally trying to evolve by cutting costs and utilizing their already existing online infrastructure (I'm sure Disney had a lot to do with it, as they are doing the same thing).


But if your think Disney, the corporation, is going to keep Marvel COMICS around to pump-out IPs, your mistaken. They have 50+ years of IPs to mine and can recycle every 10 to 15 years. The moment Marvel Comics cannot sustain itself, it'll be gone. Marvel is ALREADY contracting out Spiderman and Black Panther to IDW. Marvel's YouTube channel is doing cooking shows and their Marketing Director is trying to rebrand the whole thing company as a "life-style brand". Those are her words. But this is not because of social issues and politics being injected into the books (which do annoy me, even as a 1st gen black-American, democrat). It's because there are less of us reading, thus less money coming in. That's it. It's not personal, it's business. In my opinion, instead of chasing trends, Marvel, DC, whoever should try to at least keep the customers they have left.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 01:19:04 PM by DonPriceTag »
Rogue being flung vagina-first at the first male that pops up on her radar isn't how I'd define "romance," but Marvel must be using a different dictionary than me.- NicoPony

Offline bigbarda

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Re: What is wrong in Comics?
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2018, 12:59:58 PM »

Aka, people not knowing how to leave each other the #@$% alone. I'm just tired of seeing this stuff pop up on my Twitter feed. I don't follow D&C or Mark Waid. I found both of their Twitter ranting annoying. There's reason on both sides, but extremist at each end drown out the saner voices.


Current Comic Pros are not trying to kill comics and take away your characters. That's from a bunch of frustrated nonsense flingers that cant properly verbalize their complaints.


"Comicgaters" are not anti-diversity. This is a straw-man accusation used to de-legitimize valid arguments from customers. Utilized mostly by folk who can't take criticism.


I guess you can lump me into the "books used to be better"-group, but I think that's obvious to me. When I say "used to be" I'm not talking about the 90s - I'm talking about as recent as 2012 when I was buying 4 to 5 titles per month. Can't really blame falling sales on the decline in quality of books (there's no effing way you can look at Marvel during the last few years and say they look the way they are supposed to as the leader of the comic industry.). The reason sales are dropping is simply because people are less willing to invest their money into literature of any kind. People are reading less. Period. Current readers are, for lack of a better phrase, dying out and they aren't rapidly being replaced as they were during the 80s-90s. We'll never see another X-Men #1 (1992) sales again or even something like the Harry Potter craze. Those times are over. Marvel is finally trying to evolve by cutting costs and utilizing their already existing online infrastructure (I'm sure Disney had a lot to do with it, as they are doing the same thing).


But if your think Disney, the corporation, is going to keep Marvel COMICS around to pump-out IPs, your mistaken. They have 50+ years of IPs to mine and can recycle every 10 to 15 years. The moment Marvel Comics cannot sustain itself, it'll be gone. Marvel is ALREADY contracting out Spiderman and Black Panther to IDW. Marvel's YouTube channel is doing cooking shows and their Marketing Director is trying to rebrand the whole thing company as a "life-style brand". Those are her words. But this is not because of social issues and politics being injected into the books (which do annoy me, even as a 1st gen black-American, democrat). It's because there are less of us reading, thus less money coming in. That's it. It's not personal, it's business. In my opinion, instead of chasing trends, Marvel, DC, whoever should try to at least keep the customers they have left.


I think you've got a bit of a short-term view of the publishing industry. A friend of mine worked for a big brand bookstore for nearly a decade, and they went from ditching books at the front of the store for Kindles, then ditching the Kindles for lifestyle cooking, then ditching those for kid-friendly books and accessories. Things go in and out of fashion and the front line stores are the last to keep up.


IDW are doing kid-friendly Spiderman and BP comics, not the main line. IDW already specialise in the kid and young-adult market, so Marvel can take advantage of their talent pool and market knowledge without the research and development cost of doing it themselves.


didnt modify anything, forgot to include "not" before personal on my post, and pressed the wrong button, apologies.- Don
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 01:20:06 PM by DonPriceTag »

Offline DonPriceTag

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Re: What is wrong in Comics?
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2018, 01:12:27 PM »

Hey, I deal with kids on a daily basis. No one talks about comic books, much less has one. I have one of those Marvel posters in my office (the one with no X-Men or FF lol). Only character they can name are the ones from the movies. You seem to think the industry is going to bounce back. Not in it's current form. This is simply business. 1s and 0s. The industry can see an eventual upswing, but not in its current form. The direct market (comic book stores) are vanishing. The only ones staying above are the ones that are lucky enough to survive while their competitors drown so they eventually absorb their customers, at the same time diversify their stock to include more specialty items (because comic shops always sold more than just books, they just have to sell more of that stuff to stay in business now). Like I said, sales can go up, but it's never going back to what it was, especially not without the support of LCSs in major metropolitan areas as well as suburbs.

Oh I get that. But when did IDW become a kid-friendly publisher more than Marvel was capable of being? Because of their Hasbro-line of books? Those things can be as mature as anything Marvel and DC put out. What exactly can IDW do, (a company that's barely holding on. check out their quarterly reports, its public knowledge) that Marvel cant? I tihnk this is more of Marvel Comics heads having friends in IDW and letting themselves be talked into throwing the company a line. In this, I believe (I could be wrong), Marvel is paying IDW, IDW isn't licensing the IPs. Correct?
Rogue being flung vagina-first at the first male that pops up on her radar isn't how I'd define "romance," but Marvel must be using a different dictionary than me.- NicoPony

Offline Nekobaghira

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Re: What is wrong in Comics?
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2018, 03:33:17 PM »
Because it takes me time. I spent far more time trying to figure out IP's than necessary. But didn't want to google it because darn it all, I should know these things.
Intellectual Property? Right? For me, its always meant Internet Provider. LOL

Offline DonPriceTag

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Re: What is wrong in Comics?
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2018, 03:51:13 PM »
Because it takes me time. I spent far more time trying to figure out IP's than necessary. But didn't want to google it because darn it all, I should know these things.
Intellectual Property? Right? For me, its always meant Internet Provider. LOL


lol yes in this instance IP means Intellectual Property.
Rogue being flung vagina-first at the first male that pops up on her radar isn't how I'd define "romance," but Marvel must be using a different dictionary than me.- NicoPony