Topic: Mr and Mrs X #7 Thread

[RomeoSvengali]

As others have said, none of us are denying that it happen, what some of us were asking for (at least I was), was for Rogue to admit that it was the wrong thing to do in sleeping with him, to apologize to Gambit for that and that she shouldn't treat someone who is a psychopathic genocidal mass murder with a death toll in the 100s or 1000s, who personalty sought to ruin her then boyfriend's life and pretty much succeeded, as some sort of friend. Especially when he has never been a friend to her, has ever cared about her well-being, has never thought highly of Gambit at all and has never apologized for anything he's ever done... but suddenly does. That everything he's ever done is looked as if it was no big deal.

I would have thought that Rogue admitting that it was a terrible mistake, that she sees what Mag is and always has been, would have been some important character development for her, that she's learned and grown since those blind naive days, but since Kelly is fan of it, that wasn't going to happen. Roguneto is dead... I hope it is, but I just can't see it being dead at all.

Like I said, having Rogue state that leaving Gambit to die was "bad on top of bad", well the person who caused that was Mag and she very well knows that, she saw the tape of him dressing up like Eric the Red. But again like I said, Kelly is just cherry picking what canon she likes and doesn't. I just saw someone on the CBR board stating that there glad that she counter-retconned the Sentry crap, but just a few weeks ago, they were stating that you can't ignore continuity... these people need to make up there minds.

[Greens]

Alright so that prick Mike Carey hasn't been very clear on this and his writing doesn't necessarily match what he's said in interviews. In this interview: https://www.cbr.com/x-position-mike-...f-x-aftermath/ Carey say's in the first question after he's asked about Legacy's memories, "That's a question she's probably asking herself, Xerox-Kitty. I'm sure those memories are still in the mix and I think it's for that reason that Magneto suddenly back-pedaled and tried to warn her off. It's similar to what happened in issue #234 when she kissed him under the influence of the psi-powers she'd borrowed from the Cuckoos. He refused to take advantage of the situation then, wanting her to come to him of her own free will and similarly, here, he does his best to remind her of what she might be getting into. But taking all these things into account, Rogue is still very much her own woman and she made the decision that felt right to her. I think it's important to stress that. She might be experiencing psychic echoes, but her feelings are her own and her life is her own. So in answer to your second question, I'd say, emphatically, yes -- whatever else is going on in her mind, the attraction is genuine."




/size]
However Carey has Rogue say this to Magneto in X-men Legacy #248, "Ah don't want to be around you. Ah can't sort out mah own thoughts from Legacy's. She loved you, loved the General. He was the thing she clung to, when she felt like she was drowning." That's on page 20 of that issue. Carey clearly wants us to interpret all of this as Rogue loving Magneto of her own free will (with some of Legacy's mind in there). Basically that prick used Legacy's memories as a device/excuse to push them together because he was too lazy of a writer to actually develop Rogneto but he wants us to know that Rogue making the final push to pursue a relationship with Magneto was all on her. So now we're stuck with this and we have to acknowledge that it's what Rogue wanted. And nothing written to elaborate on this since proves the contrary.

Hi,


My post was meant to signify that there was more than just two things we knew about 'Rogneto', notably, the 'brainwashing' which was omitted in the original post.


As you said, Carey said many things, one of which you posted. But, you probably saw the other things he said too, at differing times. For, at the onset, he said it was for one night and he used the AoX memories as  the impetus for it.
I'm sure you can find the quote if you should so choose but it was pretty evident from the book itself where he had Rogue say it was one night and that she couldn't tell her memories from Legacy's.


As distasteful as that was and as fan anger grew, he also became angry and later quotes (like the one you posted above) were said.


The story was supposed to be that his fav (Mags) would get to sleep with Rogue. He didn't want to go the respectable route of having them sort out their issues, date etc. So, he created the AoX memories thing to skip that and get Rogue to Mags. It was supposed to be a one night thing because the purpose was just to have Mags have Rogue. Then, the story was supposed to be that R&R (never got around to calling it 'romy') were to get back together by the end of the storyline because she loved him.


But, when fans didn't take it well, things soured between them and Carey/Marvel. At that point, with the guys in charge at the time supporting him to the hilt, he changed the story.


It then became a 'relationship' and he kept Gambit in the book (even  though Gillen wanted him for his) to basically hurt those fans. I'm trying to find a better way to say this but there isn't. I'm not saying Carey is a bad guy but he became resentful and vindictive as fans did also, TBH.


So it was changed and got a rush job treatment especially in the art. Look at his last issue how lacking of detail the art was. He put in that scene of Mags with Rogue to stick it to his detractors on his way out.


It's not classy and on both sides things were said etc (myself included, mind you). No one's essentially bad but rough things were said on both sides.


Anyway, I can't believe folks are quoting what I've come to realise is the 'harbour speech' giving it some revelence. Uh... that bit of dialogue wasn't meant in the way folks are taking it.


It's there so that Gambit can dump Rogue so that when Carey got his 'Rogneto' in, no one can say that Rogue 'cheated' on Gambit because she just got dumped by him. It was never meant to be taken the way I see some are viewing it.


All in all, I just wanted to say that the AoX memories thing is a part of the 'Rogneto' mess, hopefully not to be omitted. One can still dislike Rogue and hate 'romy' without omitting that.


I'm not trying to convince anyone of what to do with it. I mean, one can ignore it and say it's all Rogue or one can take it into account. I'm just saying it was there whether one chooses to factor it in or not. Fair enough.


I assume you're going to reply, please know that I probably won't respond as again, I came back to check to see if my friend, Neko got my message and i'm not buying comics anymore so please don't  take it personally if I'm not around for replies.




Take care


BTW, had no idea they retconned Sentry/Rogue.

[purplevit]

Hi,


My post was meant to signify that there was more than just two things we knew about 'Rogneto', notably, the 'brainwashing' which was omitted in the original post.


As you said, Carey said many things, one of which you posted. But, you probably saw the other things he said too, at differing times. For, at the onset, he said it was for one night and he used the AoX memories as  the impetus for it.
I'm sure you can find the quote if you should so choose but it was pretty evident from the book itself where he had Rogue say it was one night and that she couldn't tell her memories from Legacy's.


As distasteful as that was and as fan anger grew, he also became angry and later quotes (like the one you posted above) were said.


The story was supposed to be that his fav (Mags) would get to sleep with Rogue. He didn't want to go the respectable route of having them sort out their issues, date etc. So, he created the AoX memories thing to skip that and get Rogue to Mags. It was supposed to be a one night thing because the purpose was just to have Mags have Rogue. Then, the story was supposed to be that R&R (never got around to calling it 'romy') were to get back together by the end of the storyline because she loved him.


But, when fans didn't take it well, things soured between them and Carey/Marvel. At that point, with the guys in charge at the time supporting him to the hilt, he changed the story.


It then became a 'relationship' and he kept Gambit in the book (even  though Gillen wanted him for his) to basically hurt those fans. I'm trying to find a better way to say this but there isn't. I'm not saying Carey is a bad guy but he became resentful and vindictive as fans did also, TBH.


So it was changed and got a rush job treatment especially in the art. Look at his last issue how lacking of detail the art was. He put in that scene of Mags with Rogue to stick it to his detractors on his way out.


It's not classy and on both sides things were said etc (myself included, mind you). No one's essentially bad but rough things were said on both sides.


Anyway, I can't believe folks are quoting what I've come to realise is the 'harbour speech' giving it some revelence. Uh... that bit of dialogue wasn't meant in the way folks are taking it.


It's there so that Gambit can dump Rogue so that when Carey got his 'Rogneto' in, no one can say that Rogue 'cheated' on Gambit because she just got dumped by him. It was never meant to be taken the way I see some are viewing it.


All in all, I just wanted to say that the AoX memories thing is a part of the 'Rogneto' mess, hopefully not to be omitted. One can still dislike Rogue and hate 'romy' without omitting that.


I'm not trying to convince anyone of what to do with it. I mean, one can ignore it and say it's all Rogue or one can take it into account. I'm just saying it was there whether one chooses to factor it in or not. Fair enough.


I assume you're going to reply, please know that I probably won't respond as again, I came back to check to see if my friend, Neko got my message and i'm not buying comics anymore so please don't  take it personally if I'm not around for replies.




Take care


BTW, had no idea they retconned Sentry/Rogue.

Thank you for sharing the truth!

[anya]

I agree with most of that, but I do think Carey meant for the legacy memories to push her to him, but then she was supposed to be not able to resist him after that, because of his awesome manliness or whatever crap. And from carey’s comments, the habor speech was supposed to be gambit being manipulative (dumping her, thinking she’d get scared and run back, but it would backfire on him.)


He definitely was surprised and seemingly quite bitter, that the fans didn’t like his super sexist story, I think he thought it would get a response like Scott/Emma did. That the die hard shippers wouldn’t like it, but the ‘average’ fans would love it because it was a new and interesting, but that didn’t happen. He even got to the point where in one of his last interviews he said the next writer would be coward if they broke up Rogneto.it’s like, dude at some point you just need to accept that maybe you wrote a bad story...


As to she shouldn’t treat him as a friend at all...yes, she should not, none of the x-men shouldn’t, he shouldn’t have been trusted as much as he was on utopia, he shouldn’t have been automatically made ‘Vice President’... it’s a consistent problem the marvel has. The movies fall prey to it as well. I‘be heard people who have only seen the movies, laugh about how Xavier is magneto’s ‘battered girlfriend’,

[Nekobaghira]

TLDR post incoming with some sarcasm. Take with a grain of salt, drink plenty of liquids and know nothing personal is implied. Just an opinion. Disclaimer done.

The problem with the "memories" were they were created by Legion. What Rogue felt in AoX was all fake and when Emma Frost offered to remove the fake memories, Rogue declined. This bothered Gambit, then the harbor speech. Then Rogue used Gambit's words as justification to sleep with Magneto. These things happened in Carey's Legacy book.

And Greens is correct, the fans reacted and Carey reacted. He wasn't expecting blow-back from his story nor the anger over it.


Carey was the longest running writer at Marvel at that time and it was quite the feat. He was the darling. His refusal to give up Gambit and do nothing with him only angered G's fans. He would do interviews and you could tell he understood the character, knew about him and how to write him. He didn't for whatever reason - well we do know. Carey only wanted to write Rogue. Sound familiar? Because it should.

The percentage complaint is valid. Its just a rehash of another writer with a different spin where Gambit is a love interest and at this point no different than Magneto treatment under Carey's pen. None of that has changed. The preferred love interest is all that is required.


How does Gambit progress with these type of writers. He doesn't. We've got a proclaimed feminist writing Gambit and not being written with any substance. If this was the case for Rogue, the same writer could possibly have complaints and mostly because Rogue is female. Where is the equal treatment. Oh wait, there is none because men are just objects, only good for one thing. LMAO. See, how ridiculous this is?


Whats fascinating is nobody wants to call the writer out like they've done in the past with Asmus, PAD, Liu and etc. I picked them because even with their faults they did try to write Gambit. There is no trying here - but I will say, Dantay is right. Gambit isn't written like Rogue is, that is - his lack of characterization isn't hurting him. All he does is jump and throw cards and that doesn't hurt him.

Okay - well, that felt good.

[anya]

I kinda think KT’s version of gambit is more like Liu’s. She clearly likes and understands the character,  it writes a somewhat ‘idealized’ version, the very emotionally supportive, perfect boyfriend and cool uncle ( for x-23) and occasional dispenser of wise advise (yes, I know Liu didn’t like rogue, that’s fine, talking about how she wrote gambit.)

[Nekobaghira]

I kinda think KT’s version of gambit is more like Liu’s. She clearly likes and understands the character,  it writes a somewhat ‘idealized’ version, the very emotionally supportive, perfect boyfriend and cool uncle ( for x-23) and occasional dispenser of wise advise (yes, I know Liu didn’t like rogue, that’s fine, talking about how she wrote gambit.)

Agreed

But Liu was criticized for it, and KT is not. She should be criticized for her treatment of not just Gambit, but Rogue too.

KT did nothing but bash Asmus' version of Gambit and she has taken almost all of his traits away except jumping and throwing cards.

Edit: I don't think Liu didn't like Rogue. Editorial wouldn't allow her to use Rogue. Carey had her exclusively at the time and with Magneto when Liu was writing X-23.

Liu wrote a romy story in a Marvel novel. While I can't recall the name of the story now, it was a sweet story for the couple.

[DonPriceTag]

To be fair, isn't KT being critized at this very moment? I can point out half the board here seems to be doing that actively. Nothing wrong with that. I mean Is there someone specific you're looking for? I didn't read X23 but I don't recall anyone in the media "calling her out". If you mean fans, then that would put her, Asmus, KT, PAD and Carey all in the same boat. Everyone doesn't need to be in agreement, it's how you keep writers honest and challenge each other's ideas. It's healthy. It's best not to get too invested in what other people think. Except for clown pants...  Never clown pants.


#NeverForget

[Nekobaghira]

I suppose.
 
It's not unwarranted – KT's Gambit is not good characterization, in fact he's horrible. IMO. My goodness could he be any less of his character. Oh wait, we got a few more issues to go to see how low he'll go.  I don't have romy goggles, them being together doesn't cut it for me. He's not the character that was created at all. What he is - is married. I like marriage but this romance has sucked from the get-go. It was for drama and nobody wanted that.

 
But the dislike here for the Asmus #3 cover was over the top. The book wasn't out and “omg – this is gonna suck”, without reading a god damn word was irritating. Issue one wasn't out.


At least with MMX - people waited to see what they were gonna get. We've had a five issue mini and we're 7 issues with ongoing and so far ... There is nothing to say about the book in regards to Gambit other than his marital status. Thats it. That's 12 issues ..... is it so unrealistic to want something more.
 
As for PAD – he had a cushy gig until it mattered to Marvel. While I don't think his Gambit was horrible, he wasn't great either. And when Marvel wasn't going to let him do whatever for whenever .. well it was what it was. People starting complaining by issue #4. I think those who are not liking things aren't being unreasonable.

 
Liu was not only “called out” for her portrayal of Gambit but her writing was called fanfiction which at that time was meant as a derogatory term. She got roasted by fans because of her interpretation of Gambit. You may not have been here. She didn't assassinate Gambit. She actually added to his story in X-23's book and it was the only thing feeding Gambit fans at the time because Carey/Gage didn't give a s*** about him.

 
People here and other places complained about whatever with other books but for some reason KT is exempt. My goodness if Asmus, PAD, Liu and anyone else can get some heat so should KT. She is not perfect and her book isn't the best thing since whatever. And you know what, stop with the Rogue centric crap (meaning her writing).


To clarify: I don't think KT is hurting G's character or assassinating him or any of the other things I've stated here. I do think, he's incredibly watered down version with the spotlight on his romantic and supportive side. It's not necessarily a bad thing. I feel there is more to the character than those traits. I want some story for him is all. By the time we get story for him based on solicits, the book will most likely be on the chopping block.


C'mon, the loudest vocal detractors is Remydat and Me. He's more eloquent about it and I'm a tad too harsh. I think most here know that and roll with it which is greatly appreciated. 

And as I always say, if you are loving MMX, awesome. Buy it, enjoy it. Don't let my opinion sway you in any way. If its your thing, then enjoy your thing.
 

[Dantay]

I suppose.
 
It's not unwarranted – KT's Gambit is not good characterization, in fact he's horrible. IMO. My goodness could he be any less of his character. Oh wait, we got a few more issues to go to see how low he'll go. This Gambit is awful. I don't have romy goggles to make this s*** good. It's not. He's not the character that was created at all. What he is - is married. I like marriage but this romance has sucked from the get-go. It was for drama and nobody wanted that.

Gambit hasnt been the Gambit that was created in a looooong time, no characters are they evolve with time and the different writers, people will point to UXM 350 as to the end of the Gambit we know and love but imo his characterization began to change  well before that, Soon as Joesph showed up with Rogue he became petty and jealous and only ever seemed to side with Joesph to impress Rogue, even after he returned to the X-Men he still held onto his Jealousy towards Joe as seen in the Magneto War (UXM366) actually he was a dick in that issue even taking a dig at how Kurt lead Excalibur.
His role after he returned was nowhere near as prominent as before, but we did have his solo, however they mysterious character traits were gone , outside of the solo his biggest character moments were his return (UXM361), saving Marrow on the Skrull home world (UXM 370), giving the battle cry to the X-Men towards the end of their fight with Apocalypse (UXM377) then taking charge of a team of X-Men (UXM381) for that duration,

then we get X-Treme Gambit well written competent plays second fiddle to Rogue (which no one seems to complain about) he is not the same Gambit who was created but is close and that was the last good Gambit we got until X-Men200 , Austin, Milligan, Carey really ruined the character but to be fair with the first two they really didn't write any character in character they all sucked, Carey did to Gambit exactly what Claremont did during X-Treme but with less talent and more in your face about it and lack of Gambit kicking arse. Gage who i was willing to give the benefit of the doubt to went down like a wet fart.

Next up Liu a very Romanticized Version of Gambit but very capable it was X23's book i was surprised how much panel time Remy got and even in Daken's book he held his own , people complained about him losing to Daken but forget he whooped that boys ass until he was distracted, then in Astonishing he was the sudo leader and one stand out moment was when he sensed Iceman who was off panel when no one else did again this Gambit imo was fun and well written but far removed from the Gambit who was created. First time in a long time he wasnt a plot devise for Rogue.

Asmus i really don't get the negativity towards this run , it was awesome , a few A list villians would have been nice true but i dont think that was a choice for Asmus , his Gambit was the best version since the last solo, no where near the Gambit who was created but so much fun, his rogue and Gambit interaction was great and how i wish they were written, although my one nit pick is that Rogue asked Gambit to join the Avengers then bashed him in the assessment WTF
PAD just gave up simple as that, he had a long story planned, people weren't into it , forced crossover event, then cancellation loomed he rushed an ending and that was that, the whole book may as well have not happened , weather good or bad it really doesnt matter it has had no effect on any of the characters involved
since then we have had wallpaper Gambit in Astonishing, a low esteemed woe is me i have no friends Gambit in Gold 4 - 6 , avenging Gambit in Red 5/6 also squad leader Gambit in Red, also there is the minis and one shots too which have been good, the best being imo Storm & Gambit one shot,
all these traits are the Gambit we have , the Gambit who was created has long since gone , KT story is not good , the focus on Rogue is annoying but her Gambit is not the worse, hes no more developed than any previous incarnation but he also not faring too bad, he is better than the worse versions that we got

in terms of 616 Gambit i rank them
1. OG Gambit (1990 - 1995 minis included)[ unless we get a Gambit comic book fan from the early 90's writing an X book this version will never be seen]
2. Fabiens Gambit (1st solo) [also i know this was the same time frame as he returned and lead the X-Men but they are seperatly ranked]
3. Asmus Gambit (3rd solo)/ Storm&Gambit one shot/ Mackies Gambit
4.Claremonts Gambit Leader- Xtreme5. Liu's Gambit6. PAD Gambit/ Gambit in Red (does frig all but what he does do is awesome)
7. 96 + return Gambit up untill he becomes leader of the X-Men/ Layman's Gambit (second solo)
8. KT / Deadpool Vs Gambit9. Carey/Gage Gambit10. Austin Milligan Gambit

[Nekobaghira]

Great post, man ... you always amaze me. You are a living, breathing, walking Gambit historian. 

Edit:

I loved Asmus run too. While not exactly like the G was when created. It was close enough.

You are right, Gambit hasn't been Gambit in a long time. It's like people get their hands on him, pick only the traits they want and thats all you get.
PAD pulled a Carey .... once the fate of the book was sealed. He not only didn't care, he kind of flipped off the fans.

re: Claremont's XXM and playing second fiddle to Rogue. It was always an issue for me. What surprised me most with that run is why romys thought it was so great for the couple. Other than living together and being shipped out after losing their powers. CC didn't really write them with positive relationship goals.


Liu did the romance thing, yup. But she did give him some feats as you've mentioned. Gambit jumped off a big building and didn't get hurt while X-23 broke her ankle. It was cool. I also liked her team building, she was forging friendships between her cast. I did enjoy that.


Your ranking looks good. Maybe we should created a rank Gambit through the years thread.

 

[purplevit]

Gambit hasnt been the Gambit that was created in a looooong time, no characters are they evolve with time and the different writers, people will point to UXM 350 as to the end of the Gambit we know and love but imo his characterization began to change  well before that, Soon as Joesph showed up with Rogue he became petty and jealous and only ever seemed to side with Joesph to impress Rogue, even after he returned to the X-Men he still held onto his Jealousy towards Joe as seen in the Magneto War (UXM366) actually he was a dick in that issue even taking a dig at how Kurt lead Excalibur.
His role after he returned was nowhere near as prominent as before, but we did have his solo, however they mysterious character traits were gone , outside of the solo his biggest character moments were his return (UXM361), saving Marrow on the Skrull home world (UXM 370), giving the battle cry to the X-Men towards the end of their fight with Apocalypse (UXM377) then taking charge of a team of X-Men (UXM381) for that duration,

then we get X-Treme Gambit well written competent plays second fiddle to Rogue (which no one seems to complain about) he is not the same Gambit who was created but is close and that was the last good Gambit we got until X-Men200 , Austin, Milligan, Carey really ruined the character but to be fair with the first two they really didn't write any character in character they all sucked, Carey did to Gambit exactly what Claremont did during X-Treme but with less talent and more in your face about it and lack of Gambit kicking arse. Gage who i was willing to give the benefit of the doubt to went down like a wet fart.

Next up Liu a very Romanticized Version of Gambit but very capable it was X23's book i was surprised how much panel time Remy got and even in Daken's book he held his own , people complained about him losing to Daken but forget he whooped that boys ass until he was distracted, then in Astonishing he was the sudo leader and one stand out moment was when he sensed Iceman who was off panel when no one else did again this Gambit imo was fun and well written but far removed from the Gambit who was created. First time in a long time he wasnt a plot devise for Rogue.

Asmus i really don't get the negativity towards this run , it was awesome , a few A list villians would have been nice true but i dont think that was a choice for Asmus , his Gambit was the best version since the last solo, no where near the Gambit who was created but so much fun, his rogue and Gambit interaction was great and how i wish they were written, although my one nit pick is that Rogue asked Gambit to join the Avengers then bashed him in the assessment WTF
PAD just gave up simple as that, he had a long story planned, people weren't into it , forced crossover event, then cancellation loomed he rushed an ending and that was that, the whole book may as well have not happened , weather good or bad it really doesnt matter it has had no effect on any of the characters involved
since then we have had wallpaper Gambit in Astonishing, a low esteemed woe is me i have no friends Gambit in Gold 4 - 6 , avenging Gambit in Red 5/6 also squad leader Gambit in Red, also there is the minis and one shots too which have been good, the best being imo Storm & Gambit one shot,
all these traits are the Gambit we have , the Gambit who was created has long since gone , KT story is not good , the focus on Rogue is annoying but her Gambit is not the worse, hes no more developed than any previous incarnation but he also not faring too bad, he is better than the worse versions that we got

in terms of 616 Gambit i rank them
1. OG Gambit (1990 - 1995 minis included)[ unless we get a Gambit comic book fan from the early 90's writing an X book this version will never be seen]
2. Fabiens Gambit (1st solo) [also i know this was the same time frame as he returned and lead the X-Men but they are seperatly ranked]
3. Asmus Gambit (3rd solo)/ Storm&Gambit one shot/ Mackies Gambit
4.Claremonts Gambit Leader- Xtreme5. Liu's Gambit6. PAD Gambit/ Gambit in Red (does frig all but what he does do is awesome)
7. 96 + return Gambit up untill he becomes leader of the X-Men/ Layman's Gambit (second solo)
8. KT / Deadpool Vs Gambit9. Carey/Gage Gambit10. Austin Milligan Gambit

Huge and very awesome post.


Love your ranking!
Just will change KT to #7 and Layman to #8.

[remydat]

I kinda think KT’s version of gambit is more like Liu’s. She clearly likes and understands the character,  it writes a somewhat ‘idealized’ version, the very emotionally supportive, perfect boyfriend and cool uncle ( for x-23) and occasional dispenser of wise advise (yes, I know Liu didn’t like rogue, that’s fine, talking about how she wrote gambit.)

The huge difference is X-23 and the characters in AXM appreciated and respected Gambit for it.  There was no history of them s***ting all over Gambit and him still going out of his way for them.

[remydat]

While X-treme X-men had more Rogue focus, I think Gambit had his moments that at least showed some element of development.


1.  Confrontation with Vargas.
2.  Being one of Storm's trusted confidants.
3.  Being necessary to power Khan's interdimensional portal.
4.  Dying and having to deal with being brought back including being angry with Rogue.
5.  Defeating Bishop without his powers.
6.  Tricking Elias Bogan into thinking he was brainwashed.


I really can't think of a single thing from KT's run that is memorable from a development standpoint.

[DonPriceTag]

Huge and very awesome post.


Love your ranking!
Just will change KT to #7 and Layman to #8.

I keep forgetting Layman had a book, and I own the series. Best Gambit for me was during Fabian's run. Early 90s with Claremont/Lobdell is a close 2nd. Mackies first run and then Asmus. Asmus did the best he could with the condition Gambit was left in + the limitations placed on him. I would say Seagle did a good job as well but that fool and other one tried to kill him off, so #&#& that guy.