Topic: Why is Gambit in Excalibur, again?

[DonPriceTag]

He was physically restrained and got a talking to while a box of kittens was basically forced on him. I think "manhandled" works here. But, meh.


On another note - shapeshifters used to have rules. Mystique is rarely held to them though. Growing tentacles doesn't mean they have added strength or looking like Nightcrawler doesn't mean they become super agile. That's more "metamorph" like Jake/Jackie (Courier), where the person's change isn't skin-deep but they become what they look like. Mystique shouldn't have been able to do what she did to Gambit. Her power doesn't include added strength.

[Toadman005]

He was physically restrained and got a talking to while a box of kittens was basically forced on him. I think "manhandled" works here. But, meh.


On another note - shapeshifters used to have rules. Mystique is rarely held to them though. Growing tentacles doesn't mean they have added strength or looking like Nightcrawler doesn't mean they become super agile. That's more "metamorph" like Jake/Jackie (Courier), where the person's change isn't skin-deep but they become what they look like. Mystique shouldn't have been able to do what she did to Gambit. Her power doesn't include added strength.

Amen. She's a shapeshifter, not Mr.Fantastic. I love Liu, feel she writes a competent, cool, caring Gambit, but having him lose that exchange really, really pissed me off. How many times now has Mystique embarrassed Gambit??

[killphil]

Amen. She's a shapeshifter, not Mr.Fantastic. I love Liu, feel she writes a competent, cool, caring Gambit, but having him lose that exchange really, really pissed me off. How many times now has Mystique embarrassed Gambit??

I feel that as super fans of characters, it gets easy to slip into wanting our favorite to be a Gary Stu. But when the story is written from the perspective of the protagonist, then the characters need to have adversity and not just win all the time. I find a story far more engaging when the hero has to struggle a bit to come out on top or sometimes not at all.

Like in Star Wars. If Luke just beat Vader on their 1st duel, it would have completely rendered Vader as incompetent for the next movie,  a mistake I feel the newer Disney films made with Rey and Kylo. It made the villain non threatening and I found myself not rooting for the hero. I just like good character driven storys where the character is respected even if they dont win everytime.

I certainly have seeen my fair share of writers disrespect Gambit as a character, but I just don't see it in this particular story.
But I'm trying to remember, what other times have Mystique and Gambit fought besides that time he was Death all those years ago? I remember a scene before he was death where he was giving her a good fight, but maybe I'm missing some story's?

[DonPriceTag]

Uhm.. what Lui wrote in 2012 has little to do with what Milligan wrote in 2006. The two instances have nothing to do with each other. Throughout their history they've had conflicts more than once or twice. There's an issue during the Fabian run where he charged her legs. But... What does that have to do with Gambit getting physically overpowered in the book I referenced? I'm not saying he's unbeatable. I'm saying he got manhandled. Which he did.


At this point we're what? Arguing about whether she dominated him or not? She did. Not quite sure what the opposition is... Shouldn't have to say there's more wrong with that run concerning Gambit than that. It also led into his trouncing by Captain America in AvX, a high point with Asmus followed by his ongoing embarrassment in X-Factor.


I might have to reread my post because I think more is being made out of my post than intended. I'm not upset by it. It was an observation. I don't see a bias angle in what I said.

[DonPriceTag]

Ok... This is stemming from conversation that started in August. I didn't even say it, I was reiterating someone else  .


The point of my post wasn't to big up Gambits fighting ability, though it should be greater than Mystique, it was pointing out how lackluster his run in Astonishing was overall. That was just one instance towards the end of it. By that point I was kind of over it

[killphil]

Uhm.. what Lui wrote in 2012 has little to do with what Milligan wrote in 2006. The two instances have nothing to do with each other. Throughout their history they've had conflicts more than once or twice. There's an issue during the Fabian run where he charged her legs. But... What does that have to do with Gambit getting physically overpowered in the book I referenced? I'm not saying he's unbeatable. I'm saying he got manhandled. Which he did.


At this point we're what? Arguing about whether she dominated him or not? She did. Not quite sure what the opposition is... Shouldn't have to say there's more wrong with that run concerning Gambit than that. It also led into his trouncing by Captain America in AvX, a high point with Asmus followed by his ongoing embarrassment in X-Factor.


I might have to reread my post because I think more is being made out of my post than intended. I'm not upset by it. It was an observation. I don't see a bias angle in what I said.

Im not arguing. Just having a casual conversation. Its not that serious for me, bro lol.

[killphil]

Ok... This is stemming from conversation that started in August. I didn't even say it, I was reiterating someone else  .


The point of my post wasn't to big up Gambits fighting ability, though it should be greater than Mystique, it was pointing out how lackluster his run in Astonishing was overall. That was just one instance towards the end of it. By that point I was kind of over it

Thats why I quit reading comics. The characters are so much larger than the funny books marvel puts out. Most of these characters are pop culture icons that are FAR larger than the printed medium from which they originated. I find my enjoyment from the collectibles or from playing as my favorites in the numerous games. Seeing them in the movies (well not X-Men, but soon, maybe), re watching the old show with my son. All that stuff. Discussing stuff with fans. But thew books just don't hold water. Too many writers. No vision. Gone are the days of Claremont, Byrne, Lee at al. Comics could never become the medium they once were, at least not for me.

[DonPriceTag]

I agree about the too many writers thing. But it's not just that. Editors don't seem to know how to do their job. If they are anything like the writers they are supposed to pull in then they probably don't have much of spine or even see anything to edit.


There's been so much bad stories that make it to print I wonder if anyone has taste anymore. Characters rarely behave as they are supposed to and function more like the mouthpiece of the writer.

[killphil]

Yeah, it's the whole process. Without consistent writers, editors, and even artists like we had back in the 70's-90's, there will never be any consistent tone or characterization to any books or characters within. Probably why it's so easy for me to write off comics now days. And Marvel staff has long abandoned it's house style, about the time when when Quesada took over as EIC 20 years ago in favor of creators having more free reign. Which has been abysmal for the books and characters themselves.

[purplevit]

I agree that editors are doing nothing.


Also will add my 5 cents and remind more crap stories:
How Mystique broke Remy`s jaw with a single punch and told that he has a glass jaw. Thank you Bunn.

[Toadman005]

I agree that editors are doing nothing.


Also will add my 5 cents and remind more crap stories:
How Mystique broke Remy`s jaw with a single punch and told that he has a glass jaw. Thank you Bunn.

Christ, I don't even remember that...maybe I blocked it from my memory.

[Toadman005]

I feel that as super fans of characters, it gets easy to slip into wanting our favorite to be a Gary Stu. But when the story is written from the perspective of the protagonist, then the characters need to have adversity and not just win all the time. I find a story far more engaging when the hero has to struggle a bit to come out on top or sometimes not at all.

Like in Star Wars. If Luke just beat Vader on their 1st duel, it would have completely rendered Vader as incompetent for the next movie,  a mistake I feel the newer Disney films made with Rey and Kylo. It made the villain non threatening and I found myself not rooting for the hero. I just like good character driven storys where the character is respected even if they dont win everytime.

I certainly have seeen my fair share of writers disrespect Gambit as a character, but I just don't see it in this particular story.
But I'm trying to remember, what other times have Mystique and Gambit fought besides that time he was Death all those years ago? I remember a scene before he was death where he was giving her a good fight, but maybe I'm missing some story's?

Well, besides the fact that Gambit's faster than her, a better fighter, and larger/stronger and in theory, more durable, as well as slightly armored, to say nothing of his powers, it was sad that an angered/enraged Gambit was, at best, struggling with her. The line of "You can't even fight!" was, literally, an insult to the character, and fans. Also, Gambit punching her feels....also like they did him dirty. Gambit's not above taking a woman out, but a closed fist punch to the face? Seems scummy, and can't recall it any other time.

[DonPriceTag]

I agree that editors are doing nothing.


Also will add my 5 cents and remind more crap stories:
How Mystique broke Remy`s jaw with a single punch and told that he has a glass jaw. Thank you Bunn.

... thanks for bringing that up. I too blocked that from my memory. Didn't Fantomex beat him too in that same issue? I know he won, but it's embarrassing to lose to his carbon copy

[purplevit]

... thanks for bringing that up. I too blocked that from my memory. Didn't Fantomex beat him too in that same issue? I know he won, but it's embarrassing to lose to his carbon copy

Mystique tricked Remy when she used Rogue`s look. With one punch she broke Gambit`s jaw and told that he has a glass jaw. Later Fantomex was waiting while Gambit will fix his jaw so they can have round 2 of their fight. After that we saw 2 panels where Fanto was kicking Remy and Gambit was doing nothing kind to protect himself.


Garbage.

[DonPriceTag]

They even changed his eyes during that story. They have his red and black eyes to that character no one cares about (Ulysses?) and recolored his eyes to white on black... It was totally lame.