Topic: Iceman and comics

[Nekobaghira]

Thanks Icefanatic.

It's been awhile. I hope you are well.
I think there is a new Iceman book, are you liking it? I saw a review for issue #5 but I didn't know they rebooted the book.

Some of the prose novels are good. However, keep in mind they're older material.
And if you answer, I'll make a new thread. LOL

[Icefanatic]

Thanks Icefanatic. 

It's been awhile.  I hope you are well.
I think there is a new Iceman book, are you liking it? I saw a review for issue #5 but I didn't know they rebooted the book.  :)

Some of the prose novels are good.  However, keep in mind they're older material.
And if you answer, I'll make a new thread.  LOL

I'm getting over a cold. . .  and a sprained knee. . .  other than that, I'm good.   :)

I haven't liked much they've done with Iceman in the past 3-4 years.  Aside from the orientation change, the writer of ALL the Iceman stuff(Iceman ongoing 1-11,  Iceman mini 1-5 and the upcoming Uncanny X-Men: Winters's End oneshot out next month), Sina Grace, tends to write Iceman as an always-on jokester and a bit of a gay caricature.  Iceman's mostly like a different person.  The main of Iceman fans have largely rejected it and it's divided the gay fans as well.

I took a break from Marvel(and my forum) for about a year. . .  just fed up with Marvel.  When I came back I took a look at a lot of the weird stuff in the X-Line(characters not being like themselves, books seeming to be happening in different timelines, character mutations and costumes coming and going for no reason or explanation) and where most fans saw mistakes, I saw a pattern.  I realized that several characters had likely been replaced by alternate-realty versions, including Iceman, and that time was being rewritten.  I suspected Eva bell.  That was proven right when it was revealed in the pages of Old Man Logan in the "Past Lives" arc that current-adult Iceman was from Old Man Logan's timeline.  The people at CBR dismissed that, concluded that the writer, Jeff Lemire, forgot what version of Wolverine he was writing.  Sigh.  After a little digging, I found the issue where Eva Bell actually rewrote the 616 timeline into Old Man Logan's timeline.  She's obviously been making some more tweaks to it since.  I've just been waiting on the reveal, likely to finally be in next month's  Uncanny X-Men: Winters's End.  In it, the Iceman from the BOTA future, Ice Master(the one who marrried Kitty Pryde and had a kid with her) travels back in time to confront the current Iceman.  Should be interesting. . .  probably break the internet all to hell.   

[Nekobaghira]

The book is X-Men: Dark Mirror

Hey Niko.   

Though Iceman is my fave, I check out the Guild sometime to see what all is happening with Gambit.   For people who never read the Marvel prose novels and are not too happy with what is in the comics now, I often point them in that direction.

Catching up from the other thread.

[Nekobaghira]

I kept checking for you on your forum. Knew you were taking a break. Feeling a break myself.

Is your forum still rolling? I haven't visited in awhile.

I feel for you, now Nicieza says that Iceman was always supposed to be gay.

https://community.cbr.com/showthread.php?119754-Fabian-Nicieza-confirms-Iceman-was-meant-to-be-gay-as-far-back-as-the-90%92s
If you are interested what is being said at the other place.

[Nekobaghira]

As for your theory. As good as any. I have no idea. I'm incredibly disappointed in the Xmen line of books.
Is IceMaster new? or just a different version of Iceman?

[Icefanatic]

I kept checking for you on your forum.   Knew you were taking a break.   Feeling a break myself.   

Is your forum still rolling? I haven't visited in awhile.   

I feel for you, now Nicieza says that Iceman was always supposed to be gay. 

https://community.  cbr.  com/showthread.  php?119754-Fabian-Nicieza-confirms-Iceman-was-meant-to-be-gay-as-far-back-as-the-90%92s
If you are interested what is being said at the other place. 

Yeah, I saw you were planning to shut GG down and changed your mind.   I feel ya.   Me and CC008 still post there regularly, the Profezzor occasionally.   After things got ugly, I finally banned Tiamatty.    :)

I've been keeping up with that thread at CBR.   So much wrong information in that thread it is ridiculous.   That's not actually what Fabian said.   He said some fans wanted Iceman to be revealed as gay or "made" gay back in the 90's.   They discussed the possibility but didn't do it.   The 'time wasn't right to tell that story'.   Yeah they are now telling that story, but with a different Iceman.   People should pay more attention to what creators actually say. 

Scott Lobdell, contrary to what is said in that thread at CBR, has said flat-out that he saw Iceman as straight and wrote him as such.   Lobdel is an Iceman fan, himself.   He even replied to a tweet where someone asked him to out one of the Titans at DC as gay, saying that it "would be like me making Bunker(who is gay and Hispanic) straight and white.   I'm not Bendis.  "

You had fans pressure Mike Carey to make him gay and closeted during his run.   Mike's response: 'It conflicts with plans I have for the character.   The thing about Iceman is he is so clear he is transparent, so while I wouldn't rule him out as being somewhat bisexual, because I think everyone is potentially somewhat bisexual, gay and closeted, no.  "

That was repeated around the internet as "Mike Carey said Iceman is gay.  " The opposite of what he actually said. 

After the outing, when asked if he wrote Iceman as gay, Carey said he wrote him as "potentially somewhat bisexual".   That was repeated around the internet that Carey said he wrote him as bisexual.   Given his earlier statement that he sees everyone as "potentially somewhat bisexual", it doesn't mean what people claim it means. 

After the outing, Marjorie Liu kept getting asked on Twitter if she wrote Iceman as gay and closeted.   Marjorie had already said she saw him as straight and wrote him as straight.   Instead of replying, she posted that "someone had just asked her if she had written Iceman as closeted to his true nature, and she had replied, yes, deeply closeted".   People said she said she wrote him as gay and closeted, She then again stated she saw him as straight and wrote him as straight, which led to people sayijng she was contradicting herself.   But she didn't, she said 'true nature', and the 'Frozen' arc in Astonishing was all about Iceman fighting his true nature as the Dragon and what his powers really are. 

After outing Young Iceman, Bendis said fans had convinced him that Iceman was gay. 
In the six month gap between that and Uncanny #600 which outed the the adult version, the X-editors said in a column at CBR that "Young Iceman was created as gay, as for the adult version.  .  .   stay tuned". 
After Uncanny X-Men #600, Alonzo said fans on Bendis's Tumblr convinced Brian that Young Iceman is gay(the character Bendis created as gay).   That Brian showed him the scans they posted(from the comics Bendis himself had written) and he concluded that Young Iceman was indeed gay.   They discussed what that would mean for the 'adult version' since they are the same person.   So they decided that "his story would be that he was a closeted homosexual living his life in shame and denial"

Fans are missing the obvious. 

As for your theory.   As good as any.   I have no idea.   I'm incredibly disappointed in the Xmen line of books. 
Is IceMaster new? or just a different version of Iceman?

I'm very disappointed in the X-Books, too. 

Ice Master is the 'wizard' Iceman from the Battle of the Atom future, the one in my avatar.   Since that was a possible future of the 616 timeline, he should notice some of the things that are currently wrong after traveling back through time. 

[Nekobaghira]

I just popped in and said Hi on your forum. I miss cc008 - he is MIA here. He's a Deadpool fan and DP was in MMX for the first few issues and it wasn't received well. I hope he'll come back. Let time do its thing as it were. I haven't read a post from Profezzor in awhile. Miss him/her too. LOL


At least I can catch up with you, cc and Prof when I can at your place.Twitter for those that I have twitter for. Though I don't tweet all that much. It's a different set of hobbies as it were.

Re: GG shutdown
It's hard to maintain a place when you don't like what's going on. It sucks the life out of you. You pay money, and hope to enjoy the hobby. It's hard when you are not pleased with books being released.

Not surprised about Tiamatty. I couldn't buy a good conversation with that poster. Every character was great but Gambit and he/she would defend the most obscure characters. Which is fine. Now that I know that poster is gone, it will feel good to visit again.

I'll link your site so that those who are curious can check it out. Who knows. I'm so undecided and not thrilled with Marvel right now. The MMX book and marriage is just not to my liking.

An observation and imo. Rogue's fans aren't talking about it either, not here or the MMX appreciation thread at CBR. It's been weeks and her fans haven't even bothered to re-create her thread at CBR. Maybe with the next issue, who knows. It says something, whether people want to acknowledge it or not. Maybe Rogue's fans are as unhappy as Gambit's fans. It's a possibility.

http://abetterplace.boards.net/
For those who don't know, this forum was created when it got too heated at CBR.


I actually hope we catch up with Salarta and JMC -Polaris' fans that posted here a few times. Good eggs.

Thanks for coming back and I hope you continue to do so. I'll also try at your place too.

I think the way of the forum is dying. People want to tumblr, tweet or whatnot.

I think the lack of direction with Iceman is problematic for the character. Marvel can't decide what they want and yet are trying to say they're "progressive" or something.

I will laugh if what cc008 stated at your forum happens, he isn't wrong. It will be hilarious to read the reaction if they change Iceman's sexuality again. I would get some popcorn, and a drink and read all day.

Your avatar is cool.

Wished I had more to say about Iceman but holy crap I'm not buying much in the Xmen line. I'm kind of lost. In fact - I'm flirting with another fandom but they're so mean its unreal.

Glad we caught up, please continue to visit.

[Icefanatic]

I just popped in and said Hi on your forum.  I miss cc008 - he is MIA here.  He's a Deadpool fan and DP was in MMX for the first few issues and it wasn't received well.   I hope he'll come back.  Let time do its thing as it were.  I haven't read a post from Profezzor in awhile.    Miss him/her too.     LOL


At least I can catch up with you, cc and Prof when I can at your place.  Twitter for those that I have twitter for.  Though I don't tweet all that much.  It's a different set of hobbies as it were.       

Re: GG shutdown
It's hard to maintain a place when you don't like what's going on.  It sucks the life out of you.   You pay money, and hope to enjoy the hobby.    It's hard when you are not pleased with books being released.       

Not surprised about Tiamatty.  I couldn't buy a good conversation with that poster.  Every character was great but Gambit and he/she would defend the most obscure characters.  Which is fine.  Now that I know that poster is gone, it will feel good to visit again.       

I'll link your site so that those who are curious can check it out.  Who knows.  I'm so undecided and not thrilled with Marvel right now.  The MMX book and marriage is just not to my liking.       

An observation and imo.  Rogue's fans aren't talking about it either, not here or the MMX appreciation thread at CBR.  It's been weeks and her fans haven't even bothered to re-create her thread at CBR.  Maybe with the next issue, who knows.  It says something, whether people want to acknowledge it or not.   Maybe Rogue's fans are as unhappy as Gambit's fans.  It's a possibility.       

http://abetterplace.boards.net/
For those who don't know, this forum was created when it got too heated at CBR.       


I actually hope we catch up with Salarta and JMC -Polaris' fans that posted here a few times.  Good eggs.       

Thanks for coming back and I hope you continue to do so.  I'll also try at your place too.       

I think the way of the forum is dying.  People want to tumblr, tweet or whatnot.       

I think the lack of direction with Iceman is problematic for the character.  Marvel can't decide what they want and yet are trying to say they're "progressive" or something.     

I will laugh if what cc008 stated at your forum happens, he isn't wrong.  It will be hilarious to read the reaction if they change Iceman's sexuality again.  I would get some popcorn, and a drink and read all day.       

Your avatar is cool.       

Wished I had more to say about Iceman but holy crap I'm not buying much in the Xmen line.  I'm kind of lost.  In fact - I'm flirting with another fandom but they're so mean its unreal.       

Glad we caught up, please continue to visit.       

cc008 is less than happy with how Deadpool has been handled since the end of his last series.  He gave up on the current ongoing.  I use to be pretty into Deadpool in the 90's, was getting back into the character, and I don't care for the current stuff either.     

The Profezzor is a guy, married, couple of kids.  We're all chocked full of ye old toxic masculinity at the ABP.  Top shelf stuff, 101 proof.   

I'm not much for Tweeting either.  I like forums, they are more of a community.  The problem is finding a community you want to be a part of, built around something that provides enough interest to fuel discussion.  There is so much dissatisfaction among comic book fans many have given up.  Or found that when they express their dissatisfaction they are attacked for not blindly loving the politically correct thing to love.  Many have taken to YouTube comment sections and abandoned comic forums entirely.     

Like I said, I feel ya.  I didn't post at all on my forum for a year.  I gave up on DC after their Nu52 reboot and never went back.  Every time I think about giving them another chance, I see something that puts me off.  I finally went back to reading a little Marvel.   Nick Spencer's Spider-Man is good, the Fantastic Four reboot is good, I'm optimistic about the upcoming Daredevil relaunch with Chip Zdarsky and Marco Checchetto.  The X-Line is a mess.  Marvel isn't doing much to feed the fandoms of many of their X-characters.  They dragged Wolverine's return out until many lost interest, and did it with two separate version of Wolverine, which confused people.  Cyclops' return is polarizing.  The '05' FINALLY went back to their own time, years after most fans were ready for them to go(and I say that as a fan of the 'real 05').  The relaunch of Uncanny X-Men was so-so, it took six issues to even get mildly interesting for me.  They repalced Cable with Kid Cable.  The Domino in the ongoing doesn't even seem like the character I have been reading about for decades.  I dropped X-Men Red because I couldn't stand Taylor's politics and him using beloved characters like puppets for his politics.  If it wasn't for some of the indie comics I read, I would probably have given up on the medium at some point.     

I tried everything I could to engage with Tiamatty in a positive, constructive way. If you want to see Tiamatty flame out, it happened in this thread.

http://abetterplace.boards.net/thread/438/tune-tomorrow-special-announcement
I was fine with them just leaving, but they kept coming back and logging in and not posting.  I knew that wouldn't last and they would start back to posting and I didn't want that, or them creepily reading our posts, so I banned their account and their IP.  That was last April.  As of the end of December, Tiamatty was still Tweeting about me and cc008
https://twitter.com/XMenXPert/status/1079276432763879429
 
If they make the change to Iceman that I want and expect, I will throw an internet party and invite everyone that expresses happiness about it to ABP to celebrate, because they will be all but run off from most places, especially CBR.     

The worst thing about fandoms are some of the fans.  I have missed talking with you.       

And anyone who wants to check out or even join ABP, feel free to do so.  I still have our Christmas theme up.  Link again: http://abetterplace.boards.net/

Edit: Am I blocked from posting links, they are all wonky? And after I edited I ended up with extra spacing after all of my periods in the whole post.  Tried fixing most of that.  Anyone interested use Neko's link or click the one in my mini-profile.     

[Nekobaghira]

No, not blocked. Its a safeguard for the site. I will pm you so that you know what to do to unlock that feature. And I'll fix your links too while I'm at it.

It will take a couple of edits on my part but should be good to go eventually.
Twitter might give me a headache but ... I like some challenges.
 

[Meliorist]

Seems like everyone is having a rough time with comics. I was peripherally aware but it sucks to hear about other characters taking a dive

[Icefanatic]

Seems like everyone is having a rough time with comics.  I was peripherally aware but it sucks to hear about other characters taking a dive

Yeah, it really is tough all over.  I think the biggest two problems are writers and editors wanting to write their own versions of who the characters are rather than try to build on who and what fans have been reading about for decades.  You get writer X's version of the character and then when fans reject it, they blame the fans.   The other, and it's related, all but ignoring or even contradicting a character's history until they want to exploit it, either for nostalgia buying, or to say that history is a lie(Captain America is and always was Nazi/Hydra, Iceman is gay and living in the closet his ENTIRE 50+ years fictional life).  Reboots, retcons, relauches. . .  Nothing builds on anything, and what was already there keeps getting torn down.  It makes it hard to invest.  It makes it hard to even want to invest.  With every new interpretation or replacement you get some new fans who prefer that, who then end up in conflict with existing fans, which makes fandoms even more toxic that some already are.

Spider-Man is a great example.  If you start reading Spidey at the beginning of his comics until about One More Day, it reads like an unbroken line, things changing with the times but the heart of the story and characters remaining the same.  Then you get a marriage erased from existence, Twenty years of history rewritten.  Some things happened the same, some thing still happened but happened differently, some things no longer happened at all(DC did that with their whole universe.  Major headache. ) Then Peter gets seemingly erased as Doc Ock takes over his body and becomes the Superior Spider-Man, and fans who liked him as Spidey didn't want Peter to come back, even though he eventually did.  Then Marvel says Spider-Man is no longer their flagship character, it's now Iron Man. . .  Basically because of the movies.  Then they bring Miles in from the Ultimate Universe and his fans want Peter retired so Miles can be THE Spidey. . .  Now Peter and MJ seem to finally be getting back together under Nick Spencer, but who know how long that will even last.

And that's when writers/editors aren't shoving their politics into everything because they mostly write their comics in their brief moments between ranting about politics on social media.

I've been reading comics since I was a little kid, and I'm in my forties.  I want something that rewards my years/decades of devotion. . .  Not ignores it, negates it or craps on it.  From the time I started reading comics in the early 80's until the late 90's, comics made me mostly happy.  Since then it's been declining and now it's pretty much inverted.  Here's the new comic/thing that we want you to buy because it reminds you of what you use to love. . .  even though it is a pale shadow of that, a major distortion, or outright the opposite.

That's. . .  not entirely fair.  It's inverted with Marvel/DC.  I'm enjoying a number of indie books.  Thank God for indie books, if it wasn't for them I would have stopped even going the comic books store several times over.

[Nekobaghira]

Picking and choosing history and then going with head canon probably is a factor. When the writer picks what history that helps the narrative but ignores other parts that were part of it is not good.

[Nekobaghira]

Another thing too is ... there just isn't enough space. 20 pages of content is it, I wonder how much that is in play too.

It's like there is so little space to work with .... that writers can't get what they want in the book without skipping history.

[Icefanatic]

And what space there is is often basically wasted.  Massive unnecessary splashes, repetitive dialogue. . .  There was an issue of All New X-Men written by Bendis that took me less than five minutes to read.  He drags stuff out forever and then has to rush to throw together an ending with tons of things an unresolved mess as a title ends.  And then the next writer doesn't want to deal with that mess so they just ignore it.

The big thing for me. . .  We use to be reading the story of characters lives.  People use to buy books to see and keep up with what was happening with Peter Parker and Matt Murdock and Remy LeBeau.  The soap opera aspect.  With everything so disconnected and titles constantly relaunching and characters not being like themselves and history ignored. . .  It's all just stories.  And a lot of them honestly not good enough to warrant buying and reading in and of themselves.  As issue #312 of a larger narrative, maybe.  Issue #7 of a book that people will have forgotten even existed a year later. . ?

[Nekobaghira]

 Agreed. I plan on expounding. LOL I know you'll find that funny.

 
I've said this here before ... the characters are there to tell the story and not gain any history added for them. You used to read a book and some element would be added to a character's history. Now, just pick a character to tell a story. That isn't where the investment exists for comics. It's the characters and their fictional lives where they are figuring things out despite having something to deal with -  obstacles -  be that a villain of the month or whatnot. The soap element as you mentioned

 
If the character didn't mean things to fans, there wouldn't be a fan base as it were. It's the vestment. Writers are missing the point of comics, its the investment of the characters. The story should work around them. If fans only wanted stories, they'd buy novels. Fans want to see more for their favorites than them going through the motion of a story the writer wants to tell because they've got some point to make or thought it would be fun.

 

 
I care about Gambit and what he's doing but he's not doing anything and hasn't done anything in months. Nothing has been added to his history with the exception of marital status. It's not enough to have a splash/action scene against nobodies. Being in a book and accepting the idea "at least he's in something" isn't good enough anymore, or at least not for me.

 
 
The other issue is when there is background story, its usually reserved for a new character instead of working with the main cast or a guest character. A different example for this would be All New X-Factor. We got an arc about a character PAD created, no one was invested in Georgia or her family. I suppose the goal was to see how the team worked together but by then in the run. All he was going to write was Quicksilver for which he only had for a brief amount of time. And would be featured in a movie later.

 
 
In Asmus solo - he had to create characters because editorial kept saying no to any character he wanted to use in the book. But he didn't sacrifice his main character Gambit to puff up Fence, who by the way was a fun character. I don't think there would have been a Joelle if he had been allowed to use Black Cat.