Topic: Gambit writers pros, woes and oh no's

[Nekobaghira]

I think it comes down to perspective. We all view things differently based on experience. I think you're taking me too literal as far as fan opinion goes, because I don't remember much of any discussion that was actually about the writing of the book back then, not here, nor there. It was one thing and I'll get to that in a moment. We certainly are discussing better now, how many years later (nine).

My ONLY disagreement is your use of the term "bullied". I've been hearing that a lot in comics and Hollywood as well. I'm not talking about actors. This doesnt apply. People can 100% bully them. But if your a writer of books or movies, you cant be "bullied" into anything. Your job as a writer for a for-profit company is to sell product. If what you're doing isnt resonating with your customers, it's not really appropriate to "stick" to anything. You cannot be an immovable object when you're trying to endear your product to potential customers. That's how business dies - unless they hold some sort of monopoly or exclusivity and customers just have to deal with it.

Maybe its more of a apples and oranges thing. I'm not saying don't have opinion or that discussion topics in stories isn't a good idea. That if a creator puts themselves out there that they should not be subject to critique, but how these things are presented is the issue for me.  We can't look at the threads because they're gone now. All that is left is Carey defending himself on his own blog or whatnot ... if that is still there. And if I was him, I would have taken that post down years ago. He's not with Marvel, wgaf what those out of control fans think now. Irrelevant. What's in print is in print. To be clear, Carey stated more than once, he would never condone rape. That should have been the end of it, but it wasn't. That comment was practically in every thread burying comments that actually discussed the story.

 
People cross the line all the time and they shouldn't and should know better. With actors, writers, artists, etc. Just because talented people put themselves out there does not give fans the privilege of being total jerks to those who create for entertainment. Or to assert themselves aggressively toward those creative people. There is a difference in giving an opinion with subjective points of the work being consumed and stating hurtful comments.

Fans are crossing lines far too frequently; from grabbing actors by their necks to take a selfie then walk away and say nothing. WTF. True story from a convention where this particular actor wanted to remind fans to be nice to each other. The thing is, he would have gladly talked with that fan and done the selfie. He's good to his fans, not a good experience. To making disrespectful comments about how characters are portrayed and stating hurtful things because the fan couldn't find the right words to express with some etiquette is completely disappointing.

 
The reason back then I would defend and still do to a degree Carey is because I've been there done that in regards with fans. I've had unopened beer cans thrown at me, called every derogatory name in the book and believe me some of those words are awful. I've been threatened and all because I was the person they saw and the fans never recognized it was a corporate decision. Thank goodness for aliases. That was years ago, so no need for more to be said. But it does give me pause when it comes to fans and what they think they're entitled too. (I've told this story before too.)

That's kind of how we relate to X-Men and Gambit. We too often just have to "deal with it" because there's no where else to go. Carey did stick to his guns, but almost as soon as he left, his romantic thread was erased. And that's because it wasn't resonating. If it was, believe me, Marvel would have ridden that gravy train until wheels fell off. It's why its important to speak with your dollars. If your not feeling something, you're not helping by supporting the product and hoping it gets better. Voice your opinion as frequently as you want so that it is heard, and dont give them your money. Don't let them write their own narrative like PAD was able to do. Remember how he blamed the failure of ANXF on Gambit? Shouldnt work.

Agree but it should be done with respect. Speaking with dollars is the best way, I concur. What I don't want to read ever again is fans attacking those creative people because they couldn't look at the product for what it was. A book, a movie, a song, a story-line, theater, art, etc.

[Icefanatic]

Agree but it should be done with respect. Speaking with dollars is the best way, I concur. What I don't want to read ever again is fans attacking those creative people because they couldn't look at the product for what it was. A book, a movie, a song, a story-line, theater, art, etc.

I agree with that. I think it's harder to do when you feel there is no respect coming from the creative, not just for the fans, but for the characters in their care. Someone actually trying and doing their best and coming up short is one thing. Then you get someone like Bendis...

Writes his own version of characters rather than who they are. Ignores continuity, even his own. Does things largely/entirely for shock value that are in some cases permanently damaging for a character. Gets a pass because as Marvel editorial once said, "people will buy his books just to see the train-wreck". Untimately the blame should go to those who choose to employ him, but at the same time it's hard to be respectful to someone who often comes off as a bratty child gleefully breaking someone else's beloved toys.

I will always be respectful when dealing with a creative because I do that with everyone, it's a facet of my character, that doesn't necessarily mean I actually feel any respect for them...

[Nekobaghira]

Perhaps the business model changed. It's the writers that are the stars instead of the characters they're writing. The writers don't care about the characters as long as whatever story they want to tell happens.
Thing is, I won't remember most of these writers because its not them in the book but the characters.  It would be nice to go back character driven story telling.

[Sparta]

The reason back then I would defend and still do to a degree Carey is because I've been there done that in regards with fans. I've had unopened beer cans thrown at me, called every derogatory name in the book and believe me some of those words are awful. I've been threatened and all because I was the person they saw and the fans never recognized it was a corporate decision. Thank goodness for aliases. That was years ago, so no need for more to be said. But it does give me pause when it comes to fans and what they think they're entitled too. (I've told this story before too.)
 

Sorry that you went through all that, that's awful.
Were you involved in a big franchise?

[Nekobaghira]

Sorry that you went through all that, that's awful.
Were you involved in a big franchise?

It did suck, but you know what ... every experience is a learning one.

At the time, third largest broadcast company for radio in the USA. It's no longer in existence went defunct in 2011 (I had left the company a few years prior to that), they sold the properties.

Time is an amazing healer, now if I'm recognized, people are nice. It's been very positive. :)Thank you for asking.

back to the topic:
It goes back to how harsh fans can be, twitter is downright mean sometimes. I've seen so many fans with so many different things throw slurs around like it was candy. 
Anyway, in end. It's not having an opinion on creative material, its stating it with mediocre amount of respect. Having a discussion without throwing out projected views because of whatever is upsetting that day.

[malachi]

Fans are crossing lines far too frequently; from grabbing actors by their necks to take a selfie then walk away and say nothing. WTF. True story from a convention where this particular actor wanted to remind fans to be nice to each other. The thing is, he would have gladly talked with that fan and done the selfie. He's good to his fans, not a good experience. To making disrespectful comments about how characters are portrayed and stating hurtful things because the fan couldn't find the right words to express with some etiquette is completely disappointing.

 
The reason back then I would defend and still do to a degree Carey is because I've been there done that in regards with fans. I've had unopened beer cans thrown at me, called every derogatory name in the book and believe me some of those words are awful. I've been threatened and all because I was the person they saw and the fans never recognized it was a corporate decision. Thank goodness for aliases. That was years ago, so no need for more to be said. But it does give me pause when it comes to fans and what they think they're entitled too. (I've told this story before too.)
 
Agree but it should be done with respect. Speaking with dollars is the best way, I concur. What I don't want to read ever again is fans attacking those creative people because they couldn't look at the product for what it was. A book, a movie, a song, a story-line, theater, art, etc.

I think I'm a rather naive person on the subject of fans. I aknowledge that there are trolls or just fans looking to profit on others missery. Those behaviours I have seen on forums. The other part. The physical meetings are more abstract for me. I wouldn't be suprised If I understimate how nasty, or how fast it gets nasty, they can get. The end of the day I'm riding this utopia train where I just want fans to support each other when their favorite characters is being treated like trash. I get very provoked when someone says they enjoy a work because a character is being written badly.

Your story sounds interesting. If there are any posts here on this fourm about it I would happily read it. If not I won't bother you with retelling it. Doesn't sound like something that is fun to retell.

[Nekobaghira]

I think I'm a rather naive person on the subject of fans. I aknowledge that there are trolls or just fans looking to profit on others missery. Those behaviours I have seen on forums. The other part. The physical meetings are more abstract for me. I wouldn't be suprised If I understimate how nasty, or how fast it gets nasty, they can get. The end of the day I'm riding this utopia train where I just want fans to support each other when their favorite characters is being treated like trash. I get very provoked when someone says they enjoy a work because a character is being written badly.

I've been disappointed in comic books for awhile, so I've looked for other things to participate in and its been eye opening because I was quite naive with some things but not with others.

For awhile, I thought it rock music that exhibited poor behavior and was limited to that genre. But it seems not so much. Interesting though, all genres of music can have some obnoxious or poorly behaved fans.

However, not so naive that I haven't witnessed a thing or two when I was working in radio. An example would be fans so drunk or high at a concert they throw beer bottles at the band on stage. The first time I witnessed that, I thought, wow - are trying to give them beer? Nope. Not the case, the band was pissed and threatened to walk off stage. I guess I might have been aware for far too long, but forget as I travel through fandoms. Sadly, I had witnessed that on more than one occasion. I don't go to concerts anymore, for a variety of reasons but I'm not embarrassed by bad behavior.

Your story sounds interesting. If there are any posts here on this fourm about it I would happily read it. If not I won't bother you with retelling it. Doesn't sound like something that is fun to retell.

Sure, I'll tell you. Give me time to compose it though, its long. Probably best in pm. 

[malachi]

I've been disappointed in comic books for awhile, so I've looked for other things to participate in and its been eye opening because I was quite naive with some things but not with others.

For awhile, I thought it rock music that exhibited poor behavior and was limited to that genre. But it seems not so much. Interesting though, all genres of music can have some obnoxious or poorly behaved fans.

However, not so naive that I haven't witnessed a thing or two when I was working in radio. An example would be fans so drunk or high at a concert they throw beer bottles at the band on stage. The first time I witnessed that, I thought, wow - are trying to give them beer? Nope. Not the case, the band was pissed and threatened to walk off stage. I guess I might have been aware for far too long, but forget as I travel through fandoms. Sadly, I had witnessed that on more than one occasion. I don't go to concerts anymore, for a variety of reasons but I'm not embarrassed by bad behavior.
Sure, I'll tell you. Give me time to compose it though, its long. Probably best in pm. 

PM sounds great.

I love going to concerts but mostly they are a very ordered affair. I live in Sweden and the artists often comment on that we are too passive as an audience 

[Nekobaghira]

PM sounds great.

I love going to concerts but mostly they are a very ordered affair. I live in Sweden and the artists often comment on that we are too passive as an audience 

Okay, give me time. That story is lengthy. LOL

I don't recall being at a passive concert. There was suppose to be one it was a acoustic evening. Which is meant to be quiet, music and a passive crowd, clapping at the end of songs. They were rowdy as all get out, singing with the artist, dancing in the aisles and the artist was embarrassed as well as the place I worked for at the time. Crazy.


Okay, lets roll it back. Shall we move on to other writers and leave Carey alone? LOL

I know PAD blamed Gambit but the reality was, when he had XF prior - Marvel left him alone. They didn't when ANXF came along. The sales is different, the stories are not what we'd hope for which is more character driven than "I'm the writer, read my story" thing. He felt like the star of his book because he wanted the same freedom he had before.

I did like Marjorie Liu, I thought she handled Gambit well. Better than PAD even if she did make him a tad more romantic than anticipated.
Missed opportunity with Iceman and Gambit and the Death seed. As in working through it as friends.

[DonPriceTag]

I think it comes down to perspective. We all view things differently based on experience. I think you're taking me too literal as far as fan opinion goes, because I don't remember much of any discussion that was actually about the writing of the book back then, not here, nor there. It was one thing and I'll get to that in a moment. We certainly are discussing better now, how many years later (nine). Maybe its more of a apples and oranges thing. I'm not saying don't have opinion or that discussion topics in stories isn't a good idea. That if a creator puts themselves out there that they should not be subject to critique, but how these things are presented is the issue for me.  We can't look at the threads because they're gone now. All that is left is Carey defending himself on his own blog or whatnot ... if that is still there. And if I was him, I would have taken that post down years ago. He's not with Marvel, wgaf what those out of control fans think now. Irrelevant. What's in print is in print. To be clear, Carey stated more than once, he would never condone rape. That should have been the end of it, but it wasn't. That comment was practically in every thread burying comments that actually discussed the story.

 
People cross the line all the time and they shouldn't and should know better. With actors, writers, artists, etc. Just because talented people put themselves out there does not give fans the privilege of being total jerks to those who create for entertainment. Or to assert themselves aggressively toward those creative people. There is a difference in giving an opinion with subjective points of the work being consumed and stating hurtful comments.

Fans are crossing lines far too frequently; from grabbing actors by their necks to take a selfie then walk away and say nothing. WTF. True story from a convention where this particular actor wanted to remind fans to be nice to each other. The thing is, he would have gladly talked with that fan and done the selfie. He's good to his fans, not a good experience. To making disrespectful comments about how characters are portrayed and stating hurtful things because the fan couldn't find the right words to express with some etiquette is completely disappointing.

 
The reason back then I would defend and still do to a degree Carey is because I've been there done that in regards with fans. I've had unopened beer cans thrown at me, called every derogatory name in the book and believe me some of those words are awful. I've been threatened and all because I was the person they saw and the fans never recognized it was a corporate decision. Thank goodness for aliases. That was years ago, so no need for more to be said. But it does give me pause when it comes to fans and what they think they're entitled too. (I've told this story before too.)
 
Agree but it should be done with respect. Speaking with dollars is the best way, I concur. What I don't want to read ever again is fans attacking those creative people because they couldn't look at the product for what it was. A book, a movie, a song, a story-line, theater, art, etc.

Boss lady, your not talking about bullying, that's open assault and those ass hats would get stomped into the ground in my presence.  I'm strictly talking about people feeling threatened by words flowing social media and fan mail. I'm not comparing physical harm to strongly/obsessively worded messages. Sorry you had to experience that. No one should be assaulted over fandom issues. That's straight up insane.

[Icefanatic]

I don't recall being at a passive concert. There was suppose to be one it was a acoustic evening. Which is meant to be quiet, music and a passive crowd, clapping at the end of songs. They were rowdy as all get out, singing with the artist, dancing in the aisles and the artist was embarrassed as well as the place I worked for at the time. Crazy.

I generally avoid concerts largely because I don't like being in a crowd of people. Bothers my anxiety. Also not a fan of having to deal with people who are drunk/high. Then I ended up at a ZZ Top concert as a spur-of-the-moment-type-thing. Outdoor concert in the daytime. Got there and they were serving beer and I thought, 'this is going  to be a disaster, people are going to get drunk and tear crap up'. Nope, everyone was ridiculously well-behaved. At least half the people there stuck to soft-drinks and those that were having beer kept it light. Anyone acting up would have stuck out like a sore thumb. I don't know the why of it. More middle-aged/older fans, a strong police presence and having it in the daytime all probably helped. Whatever the reason for it I am grateful.

Missed opportunity with Iceman and Gambit and the Death seed. As in working through it as friends.

Yeah. I've generally always wanted more friendly interactions between them. Gambit was my second favorite character (behind Iceman) in the 90's. They bounce off each other well, even in the AoA...

[malachi]

I liked AoA Gambit. Thought Fabian wrote an awsome mini in Gambit and the externals. I rate it much higher then some of the other AoA minis.

For me so far no one has trumped Fabian's Gambit. He had humanity, charm, creative uses of power and he was fun. Skroce on art too was a dream team. The kinetic energy in Skroces art. The sensaulity in Gambit was for me even better then Mann.

Ages ago the last comicshop in town was closing down and me and my friend had just moved into the city. We discovered the shop as it was having it's final sell. There was a huge pile of extremly cheap comics. We rummaged through it. He bought Gambit 1-24. I bought the last 12 issues of X-man and Supreme Power(the first 12). We had no real clue about the quality but damn we got some good stuff there. 

[dcgregorya]

Tini Howard has me so annoyed.   Can't write any of the characters in the book except maybe Rictor in a compelling way.   She uses Rogue re: babies to be her political mouthpiece basically undoing Rogue's character history.  .  .  and Gambit? Who even acts like that let alone any super hero? He's weak, whiny and the butt of every joke.   Somehow he lost all maturity and strength because Tini Howard decided to write him.   The way she has treated this book is like a bad cliche. 

If the book had a compelling and engaging story I could overlook some liberties but its awful to boot.   How is it awful?


- As a non-Capt Britain fan I have no idea who this character is, how strong they're supposed to be or why they matter.  This book is 7 issues in and still hasn't tackled that.


- The main character does not act like Betsy Braddock, she's dry and incompetent and not even likable. 


- Each issue randomly meanders on without any point or any guiding arc.  The plot is confusing and I have zero investment in anything that's happening. 


It's like how not to write a story 101, Idk how she even got this job or what the editor is thinking.

[Nekobaghira]

I don't know how she got the job either. And her idealism/feminism is outdated. And her perspective is skewed from a pov that does nothing for Gambit and makes Rogue antiquated. Not to mention the baby topic she probably has no plans on exploring with all repercussion that come with pregnancy. It really is annoying.

While I know some loved KT's work and enjoyed it and thats fine. But it was her that took Gambit down this path to ruin, TH is just over amplifying the poor characterization of a character she does not relate to other than Rogue's purse.


What needs to happen is for Gambit to be in a different book without Rogue and not written by women who feel like there is some agenda. Comic books are suppose to be fun, escapism, a nice distraction from real life. Not some agenda filled propaganda for whatever. Again my opinion. And if a woman is to write him, she had better understand him and not treat him as an appendage to Rogue.


I can't relate to this version of Gambit, at all.

[purplevit]

To be fair it wasn't KT. It was Charles Soule in Astonishing.